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slightly more than 250 percent in that same period, thereby making it increasingly difficult for localities to meet the increased burdens of providing adequate waste disposal facilities for their burgeoning populations.

The fact is, local jurisdictions simply do not have the money to do the massive job of urban development, sewage control, slum clearance and building of transit systems which lies ahead and which must be done if we are to save our cities from strangulation.

I want to also strongly endorse the proposals to increase Federal construction grants for treatment works to maintain or improve water quality.

And second, I support the provision of S. 2947 which makes available Federal grants for research and development in advanced treatment, reclamation of waste waters, and new improved methods of water purification.

To implement your proposed research programs, I strongly urge the establishment of a Federal water pollution control laboratory in California.

We urgently need help to answer questions on effects of waste waters on the marine environment, waste water reclamation and advanced treatment.

I believe that California is uniquely situated to carry out this research. We have the largest body of scientists and engineers in the world. I hope I don't sound boastful here about these things.

Senator MUSKIE. You would not be governor, if you didn't.
Senator TYDINGS. You ought to be proud, Governor.

Governor BROWN. But the State already has a strong research program. We have the largest private and State university system in the Nation. And we have all of the problems which need researching. I would point out, too, that we have a Governors' Commission on Oceanography located at the University of California at La Jolla, where we are working on all the oceanography problems, food and fisheries, mineral resources and food, and everything else. If the Federal Government did any research out there, you would find the facilities available, and you could save a tremendous amount of money in what you are trying to find out.

In summary, let me reemphasize my basic position with respect to the problem you are studying.

I fully support the goals of this committee and administration to eliminate the disgraceful and degrading pollution of the Nation's

waters.

I urge massive Federal financial assistance to States and local communities in building water quality control systems with policies that supplement and encourage State and local programs but do not supplant such local action.

I am confident that a true working partnership of local, State, and Federal Governments and private industry will prevent the waste and despoilment of our most valuable natural resource-water. I have heard some say that I am trying to make California a duchy of the Federal Government, or something. This is one of the criticisms that I hear about my relationship and my suggestions of Federal partnership in these things. I don't do that at all. But you heard Senator

Clark and you heard Senator Lausche talk about the problems of local government and, believe me, it is true. A lot of these things that we are talking about are national in scope. If we have the 50 States of the Union all doing separate research, it would really be a waste of our national finances to do a thing like that. Because what is true in Pennsylvania and Ohio is true in California, too, to a great extent. We will find things that will stop pollution. These research programs that we have undertaken really can be used throughout the whole Federal Government.

The scientists in the aerospace industries are able to put these computers to work, they are able to analyze, add them all up together, and we can save tremendous sums of money under a Federal-State partnership in all of the things that we are doing. That is what I am suggesting. Toward that end, I pledge you the support and cooperation of my State.

Senator MUSKIE. Thank you very much, for your excellent statement. In your prepared statement you indicate that your resources agency will prepare a technical paper reviewing your State programs and analyzing them with respect to the bills before this committee. Governor BROWN. Yes.

Senator MUSKIE. We would appreciate receiving that. I think the legislation does require some carpentry, in the words of Secretary Udall. So we want the technical skills which you have so carefully and forcefully assured us of.

It is a pleasure, always, to have you with us, Governor.

Governor BROWN. Thank you very much, Senator Muskie.
Senator MUSKIE. Senator Murphy.

Senator MURPHY. Governor, I am pleased, of course, to have had this chance to hear your presentation, which is, as usual, a very good one. I am pleased also to state that I am a co-sponsor of a bill with Senator Muskie, S. 2947. You will be glad to know that we have a new bill for the establishment and development of national sea-grant colleges. Hopefully, this will further spur the great effort that is already being made in oceanography in our State and other areas of the Nation.

At one time, Governor, when press of business is not so great, I would like to bend your ear a bit about the decision of the Supreme Court last year which took away from some of State rights to submerged land near the offshore islands. This is most important because of the growing importance of oceanography and the studies that have already been made on the channels between, for instance, Los Angeles, San Diego, Catalina, and others-islands which have historically been part of our State.

Governor BROWN. I think that we can do something. I would like to discuss that with you. I was attorney general, of course, at the time the tideland cases were pending.

Senator MURPHY. I have read some of your opinions.

Governor BROWN. I sat here with a special master for a period of 10 days when we discussed the boundaries of the State of California, too. I will talk to you about that when we get a chance. One of the other things that we are very pleased with out there that the Governor did not include in his report.

Senator MURPHY. I think we have made greater progress in California with the desalination of any of the States and there are two or three interesting plans which will create new supplies of water. California again I believe is No. 1 not only in football but also in the use of water, the appreciation of the value of water. I congratulate you, Governor, it is nice to see you.

Governor BROWN. Thank you, Senator. I may use this before the end of the year.

Senator MURPHY. Be my guest.

Senator TYDINGS (presiding). Governor Brown, unfortunately Senator Muskie was called away by an emergency. I would like to congratulate you not only on your statement, but also on the overwhelming job that you have done in California to look ahead and to protect for future generations your great natural resources-particularly water.

Some of the things you have done in California I wish that we had done in Maryland and I hope we will do them in the future.

I would like to hear your thoughts on a couple of specific areas. In your water quality control act do you set any standards regarding the sewage disposal from marinas or boats that use your waters? Do you have any restrictions there?

Governor BROWN. I am sure we have. But I can't tell you what they are. The State department of public health sets up quality standards after investigation for all intercounty streams or rivers. I think it is the local department of health that sets the quality, like Newport Beach, Newport Bay, and San Francisco Bay, things such as that.

But we do have very strict laws with respect to the disposal of sewage out of boats; because in Newport Bay, for example, people swim in there, there are literally thousands of boats in there, and they must have it.

But I can't tell you what those restrictions are.

Senator TYDINGS. I was intrigued by your statement on the research which you have done in California. Since both California and Maryland have some of the greatest estuarian zones in the world I was wondering if any of your studies had discovered any comprehensive work done in the field of estuaries and estuary zones. I ask you this because one of the achievements which you commented on namely; the prevention or at least the temporary cessation of all extensions in the San Francisco Bay area indicated to me that you must have been in this field otherwise you would not have had the good judgment to have such progressive legislation.

Governor BROWN. The bay was gradually being filled. We did not call it the estuary there. We have been calling it the tidelands. I think that is the same thing. But it was just being depoiled, that bay. Now we want to get an overall plan. So, for a period of 3 years there is this commission, an intergovernmental commission, composed of people appointed by me as Governor, appointed by the counties, appointed by the municipalities in the San Francisco Bay area.

In order to fill, you have to get permission from them to do it. They have been very, very tough and very, very strict on this. Within 3 years they will have an overall plan that will prohibit in some instances

any further filling because in the southern part of the San Francisco Bay those estuaries down there or tideland are spawning places-I don't use the right biological term-for bird life.

We have to preserve that. The bay will get smaller all the time. We have a Save the Bay Committee which is just like the Save the Redwoods League. They have done a tremendous job in quickening public opinion to get this job done. The legislature could not afford to vote against this last year.

Senator MURPHY. Is it not true, Governor, that we found there were five separate committees around the bay area, each one competing with the other, looking out for their own particular area, sometimes to the detriment of the other.

For the first time there is an overall committee now.

Governor BROWN. That is right. We have them in every county. There are about eight counties around the bay. It was very difficult to bring this about. But regional government is a very difficult thing to achieve.

Senator TYDINGS. That certainly is inspirational, Governor Brown. I have learned much from your testimony, not only for the immediate legislation we have pending here, but also for some of the problems we have in our own State.

I congratulate you on the splendid job you have done. I apologize that our chairman was called out, but on behalf of the entire subcommittee we certainly appreciate your time and effort to be with us. Governor BROWN. Thank you very much, Senator Tydings.

Senator TYDINGS. Our next witness is Mr. Samuel S. Baxter, the commissioner of water, Philadelphia, and president of the American Water Works Association.

Mr. Baxter, on behalf of Senator Muskie who was called out and members of the subcommittee, we certainly welcome you to this hearing. We will be delighted to hear from you and any of your comments on the pending legislation.

STATEMENT OF SAMUEL S. BAXTER, COMMISSIONER OF WATER, PHILADELPHIA, PA., AND PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN WATERWORKS ASSOCIATION

Mr. BAXTER. I am not sure when you hear my voice that you will be delighted to hear from me. This will make my statement shorter. I do have a prepared statement which you have. I would like to briefly comment on it.

Senator TYDINGS. You may proceed.

Mr. BAXTER. First of all, the association is glad to be here at your invitation. We do represent the professional and operating people and the waterworks industry in the United States. In my personal capacity I am the commissioner and chief engineer of the Philadelphia Water and Sewer Department.

As waterworks people we are definitely interested in the pollution problem because it is the waters of the country which we must use and give the people safe, clean waters. There are many of them that should be preserved in their original state. We do know that we have to use and reuse water and therefore pollution abatement is important to us.

So far we have been able to keep water safe but the increasing pollution does give us some concern.

I would like to comment on some of the provisions of the two bills, 2947 and 2987, which you have before you. First of all in 2947 the revised wording on section 6 (a) (2) which calls for assistance in developing waste treatment and water purification methods is important to us.

We do suggest that while actual work is needed on construction, if we go into a high degree of treatment there should still be a lot of research before we spend real construction money. One of the things which the association is pleased with is the section 9 (b) (3) which says that no grant shall be made unless the municipality or agency shows that they have made provisions for proper and efficient operation and maintenance of the works.

There is a continuing need for such improvement in operations. It is my own personal observation that we could improve pollution methods or pollution abatement work if existing plants were operated at their designed capacity rather than at lesser capacity.

In terms of the large grants which are set forth in subsection B of section 8, we are not in any position to know whether the $6 billion total grants or $20 billion total work is needed. But I would like to say something briefly later about our ability to meet such things. Going over to bill S. 2987 and on my written testimony it is marked 2977, which is an error, we are concerned a little bit about the statements which indicate that every river and stream in the country is despoiled and is an unsightly dumping ground for sewage.

It is a fact that there are many in that condition but it is also a fact that there are many places where the rivers and streams have been taken care of and managed properly. The mention of elimination of pollution is something which perhaps might be striven for but it is almost economically impossible when we are talking about complete elimination of pollution.

On the other hand we agree with the provision in the act that the local body should assume full financial support for operating these works in the most effective manner.

We note in the provisions in the opening paragraphs of this bill several statements about conserving water. As an industry we believe that while there should not be waste, that everybody in this country should have all the water which they desire. If the water is priced at an amount which represents the cost of production, then there will be an economic balance between wasteful use and full use.

This is one important point that we would like to stress. Let us not talk about conserving water. Let us talk about not wasting water and see that everybody gets all the water that they are willing to pay for. The idea of river basin planning agencies is something which we support and especially the provisions which we see in there that local bodies would have some opportunity to present their viewpoints when the plan is being made.

There is in subparagraph B of section 102 provision which we highly commend, which say that local bodies should assume full financial support for the replacement and expansion of these works.

Senator TYDINGS. Would you care to answer a question on that?

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