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men of the university of Oxford." Who
those "bad clergymen" were, he was
greatly at a loss to know. There must be
a misprint, a misrepresentation here.
Those words never could have been used
by the right hon. Gentleman.
Subject dropped.

the recommendation of a most distinguished individual, namely-that of Captain Chappel. He (the Earl of Wicklow) never meant to cast any imputation on that gentleman, nor on Mr. Purcell, who had also written to him. Mr. Purcell was perfectly justified in accepting the situation, if the Government thought fit to give

against the Admiralty, who had not suffi ciently considered the interest of the public when they had appointed an agent with the sole right of making what charges he pleased. He hoped the noble Earl would not create a monopoly for the benefit of any one individual, but open the carrying trade to competition. If no arrangement were made to remedy this evil and system of overcharging, he should submit a motion to the House on the subject.

THE MILLION LOAN (IRELAND) Ex-it to him. His observations were directed PLANATION.] Viscount Duncannon wished to state that, of the million advanced for the clergy of Ireland, only the sum of 640,000l. had been claimed by the clergy, there, therefore, remained a surplus in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, of 360,000l. Of that sum, 100,000l. had been lent by the commissioners to the Board of Works in Ireland, and the remaining 260,000l. was to be applied to payment of tithes due to the clergy, on the coming into operation of the late Tithe Act. The sum of 100,000l. advanced to the Board of Works, would, of course, be repaid to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. Subject dropped.

DUBLIN AND LIVERPOOL STEAMPACKETS.] The Earl of Wicklow wished to say a few words to their Lordships on the subject of the steam-packets between Liverpool and Dublin. Captain Chappel, the commander of the packet station at Liverpool, had addressed a letter to him, complaining of what he (the Earl of Wicklow) had stated on this subject last week. He stated, "I do not know whether this censure was intended to apply to Mr. Purcell or to me, or to both; but, as it was calculated to be injurious to me, in my character, I feel persuaded that your Lordship will do me the justice to remove such an impression when I assure you that Mr. Purcell asked for the appointment entirely without my knowledge, and that no complaint was made to me about his charges." If it were any satisfaction to Captain Chappel, he (the Earl of Wicklow) would state, that so far from wishing to make any allusion to him, he had never heard of him before, or that he occupied such a situation, or that he was alluded to in the appointment. This statement of Captain Chappel contradicted, however, what had been said by the noble Earl. The statement of the noble Earl had been, that he knew nothing of the politics of Mr. Purcell whatever, but that the appointment took place on

The Earl of Minto thought it would be extremely inconvenient to introduce a variety of agencies and competition. The returns showed that a very large proportion of the packages were sent by other conveyances, the income derived from this source having decreased. An inquiry had been instituted on the subject, and whatever might be the result of it, he should take care that the agency was so conducted, whether in the hands of Mr. Purcell, or any other agent, that the public should have no cause to complain.

The Earl of Wicklow said, it was quite evident that the noble Earl totally misunderstood him. He did not bring any charge against Mr. Purcell for overcharging: what he complained of was, that the Government gave Mr. Purcell the power of making exorbitant charges, and that there was no competition.

The Earl of Minto said, the only profit Mr. Purcell got, was by the land-carriage of the parcels; he got none other. If he took advantage of that to divert parcels from their proper route, in order to have them sent by his own coaches, he was guilty of an abuse, but there had been no such complaints.

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF ACT.] The Earl of Winchilsea said, that in pursuance of the notice which he had given yesterday, it now became his duty to present to their Lordships a petition signed by 3,000 persons, praying for the repeal of the statute, 10 Geo. 4th, commonly called the Roman Catholic Emancipation Act. If this petition had related to any mea

sure now under consideration before their | noxious and reprehensible in the Catholic Lordships, he would have declined, in obe- creed had been revived and re-embodied dience to the usage of their Lordships' about the year 1836 in a manual of theHouse, to present it; but as it related to ology published for the use of the Roan Act that was passed long ago, and as man Catholic clergy. There were to be it was very numerously signed, there being seen all the most obnoxious doctrines that attached to it signatures to the amount of Rome ever held. There it would be found 3,000, all belonging to persons filling that some of the most obnoxious Papal respectable situations in life, he thought bulls were still in force. The publication that the sentiments expressed in it were of this book he believed to be the sigcertainly deserving of the notice of their nal for reviving the doctrines to which Lordships. The petitioners were anxious he alluded, and from that moment the for the repeal of the Relief Act. So was Roman Catholic Church had put forth he, and he declared that he believed this the whole of its power to destroy Protestfeeling was rapidly increasing in this ant government and undermine Protestcountry; he believed, he said, that the ant authority in Ireland. The consepeople of England were fast becoming quences of this had shaken the Protestdesirous for the repeal of the act which ant church from its centre to its founwas falsely called the Roman Catholic dation; [hear, hear!] he said from its Emancipation Act. The professed object centre to its foundation, because if the of passing that act was to give peace and Church, as by law established, were upset tranquillity to Ireland. Now, he did not in any single part of the empire, the whole think that there was any individual either must fall altogether. After the conceswithin their Lordships' House or without sion of the Roman Catholic claims in it who had supported that measure on its 1829, the ingenuity of man could not passage through Parliament who could conceive a scheme so well calculated for now honestly lay his hand on his heart, the overthrow of Protestantism in this and say that he did not feel that the re- country, and the re-establishment of the sults which were then anticipated from it Roman Catholic religion in its stead, as had been realized. It might be in the was the late scheme for national educarecollection of those who did him the tion contained in the minute of Privy honour of attending to him at that time, Council. He said this because he was that he then stated his conviction that prepared to contend that the Roman there were two distinct bodies belonging Catholic religion only flourished where to the Roman Catholic Church-namely, ignorance and superstition reigned, and the Romanists and the Papists; and that that where a system of education prethough he was totally opposed to any vailed in which only general instruction measure which should go to alter the Pro- was to be given in religion, ignorance and testant form of this Government, yet to superstition must be the result. Would certain concessions of a civil nature to the to God their Lordships, at the time of Roman Catholics of this country he was considering the Roman Catholic Relief not wholly opposed. The Roman Catho- Bill, had not listened to the voice of that lics of this country, he did think, used the individual whose evidence before their power they had acquired by this act in a Lordships' committee had weighed so very different manner from the Roman much in inducing many of them to side Catholics of Ireland. With respect, how- with the supporters of the bill; would to ever, to the means which had been taken God they had not listened to the voice of to induce their Lordships to agree to the that individual, who had called him a concession of that power, he would say, furious and intolerant bigot, although he that though it was stated in evidence on could put his hand on his heart and say, oath before a committee of their Lord- that he was sincerely attached to the ships' House, that the most objectionable cause both of civil and religious freedom, doctrines of Catholicism were no longer and, therefore, was not liable to the charge held by British Catholics, yet he believed of intolerant bigotry. He believed he was those doctrines had been only suspended as tolerant in his disposition as any man for the time, and were now again in force; in the House. He opposed the Roman he believed, if he had a committee of their Catholic Relief Bill, not from intolerance, Lordships, he should be able to show that but from a belief that, if passed into a law, all those doctrines which were most ob- it would be found inconsistent with Pro

not exist. The appeal which the noble Earl made to all who had any concern in carrying the Roman Catholic Emancipation Act was substantially this-that of those who assisted to pass the measure, be

testant security; and he felt safe in stating that a similar feeling was at length aroused throughout the country. When, however, the measure passed into a law, he had said that he should be the last man who would seek to shrink from up-believed there was not one, who, if he had holding it. From that day to this he had never made an observation tending to elicit any thing of a feeling in the country which might interfere with the due operation of the measure. He had by no means flattered himself that the power then conceded to the Roman Catholics might have been used by all of them without attempting to trench on the rights of the Established Church, without attempting, as a considerable body were now desirous of doing, to take measures for the destruction of every thing dear to us. He stated at the time, that the power granted would be so used, and that the Protestants would be obliged eventually to unite, and that the time might very possibly arrive when England would see him the greatest agitator on earth. Power given to Roman Catholics, their Lordships might depend upon it, would always be exerted against the security and interests of the Protestant Church; but this the Protestant people of England never would suffer; this the Protestant Dissenters to a man would join the members of the establishment in preventing, in defence of the rights of conscience and of that happy constitution which had given to us individually and nationally a greater share of liberty than had ever fallen to the lot of any other nation under the sun. That the people were rapidly approaching to a conviction that England must retrace her steps in this matter, he was fully convinced. He would only add, that though he was not at present prepared to make any motion on the subject of the petition, still he would say, that if this went on as it had done, he should certainly bring the matter under their Lordships' notice by a substantive proceeding at a future day.

Lord Brougham was anxious to offer some answer to that which formed the substance of the eloquent and impressive speech of the noble Earl; he said eloquent and impressive, for such must everything be that comes from the feelings, and he fully believed that the noble Earl always spoke from his feelings; for a more conscientious, fearless, and honest mind than the noble Earl's, he was persuaded, did

known then what he knew now, would now agree to the measure; or would now lay his hand on his heart, and say he did not repent of his share in it. The idea of the noble Earl was, he took it, that, as now informed, the then supporters of the bill would support it no longer if it was to do over again, and that, better informed as they were now, if they did not repent of their share in passing it, they at least felt, great discontent and distrust in respect to its operation. On examining his own heart, and considering all the public events which had happened since 1829, when the Act was passed, with the large experience subsequent to that time which he had had of its working, and with some little acquaintance with the question, having supported Emancipation from the first period of his entrance upon public life, he should now, if it were to do afresh, advocate the same opinions as he advocated then, and up to 1829, when the measure was carried, with his characteristic firmness by the noble Duke. Some men, it was true, there were who now professed themselves disappointed with the effects of the measure; but why was this? Because they had entertained the most extravagant notions of the good this measure was to effect, if they believed that a benefit withheld for years, could do so much good, when, at length, it was conceded, as if it had been passed at first. They that had thought much was to be expected from a measure passed in such circumstances, had no right to be disappointed, if the results at present fell below their extravagant anticipations. If any one thought that it was in the course of a few years that centuries of misgovernment could be rolled back, and the people of Ireland placed in the same condition all at once as if such misgovernment had never been- if any one was so extravagant and romantic as to think this, that man would by no means be justified in complaining of the disappointment of his anticipations. Why, it was all along the very essence of the argument of those who supported the measure, that delay would be most injurious to the success of the measure, and most detractive from the benefits which, if it were passed

697

Roman Catholic

{JUNE 21}

in season, might reasonably be looked disappointed, if the result fell below his for from it. What else was the argument expectations. It would be unwise to exof Mr. Pitt, when he quitted the Admi- pect that such things could be accomnistration upon this question? What was plished by any act of human legislation; his argument again in the famous declara- it was unjust to complain that the tion with which he armed Lord Corn- measure had failed, if it only failed to wallis, and by which the Union was vir- answer such wild and chimerical expecttually effected. What else was the argu- ations. None of the friends of Catholic ment to which, in 1805, Grattan lent the Emancipation ever expected that that aid of his masterly eloquence? What else measure alone would be sufficient to cor-. was the essence of Mr. Canning's argu- rect all the calamities of Ireland. They had ment from 1809 down to 1827-what, always said, that nothing could be done but that it would be dangerous to the without that foundation, but they had peace of the country that it should be never said, that the foundation was all thought they were withholding justice that was required. It was just as if any from the Roman Catholics, and that such one, knowing a supply of fresh air to the a delay of justice could not fail to produce lungs to be necessary to sustain the life in Ireland that discontent which is a gan- of man, should argue that that alone grene in its society, and which all that good would be sufficient to keep him in health government could do for years to come, and strength. So with regard to Ireland, would be unable to eradicate from that ill- it was clear that the removal of the great fated land? What was it they insisted obstruction to improvement in the habits upon, year after year, but that the longer of its population was the chief requisite ; a people were kept out of their rights, the but this was not enough; it was necessary, less was the gift of them effectual and in order to introduce a better state of beneficial? And this was the truth. If things, to remove other grievances that he gives twice who gives quickly, he pressed heavily on the people. Thus halves and quarters his gift who only gives much had he said of the injustice done to after delay and perpetual delay. He, there- the great measure of emancipation by the But he should much misstate his fore, was most extravagant and romantic who one-sided and partial views of the noble expected from a measure delayed as this Lord. had been, the same benefits as if no delay own opinion if he did not add, that he had happened. Thus much for the first thought the habitual factious dispositions part of the noble Earl's observations. In which had grown up under the old system reference to the second, he would say, were equally inveterate on both sides; that when they had gone on year after they existed not only in the minds of the year withholding from the people of Ire- Orangemen towards the Catholics, but in land the rights of conscience, and the the minds of the Catholics towards the liberty of worshipping God in the way Orangemen. He deeply lamented that no man making Ireland should thus be made the prey of each man thought right, them afraid;" withholding too the removal faction in its worst shape, that of religious of disabilities, because those on whom they rancour combined with political animosity pressed were of a different belief from our--that the spirit of dissension should mix selves; he said, that if there was one man who could expect that when at last the thing was granted as a boon, and the pressure removed which had fixed discontent in the minds of a party forming the great bulk of the people, until hatred, opposition to law, and dislike of English rule became a part of their second nature second nature-if there were such a man, for he was not deserving the name of statesman, as to think that the people should all at once forget all that was past, and totally and

at

for custom

was

66

once change the character which for ages they had been acquiring, forming, and fixing, such a man had no right to be

itself with the ordinary relations of society, and with all the affairs of life, eating as it were like a foul ulcer into the body politic. All unprejudiced persons must see that it would require a long course of firm, paternal, equal, and impartial administration of the law, as well as much improvement of the law itself, to eradicate this spirit and make Irish society resemble that happier state of things to be found in this country. He had no manner of doubt that the task would be a difficult one, that the government of Ireland was a load too heavy for almost any shoulders, that it would be a hard thing to carry out fully the intentions of the Legislature in grant

He had

ing Catholic emancipation, and thus re-affairs without conceding it. store tranquillity to Ireland. But he was always considered that the Government of comforted by seeing that considerable the day acted in the most prudent as well progress towards these results had been as in the most honest and manly manner, made within the last nine or ten years; in consenting to wave the objections they and if those principles which had gene- had previously entertained to the measure, rally guided men's conduct during that and declaring that they could not admiperiod should still prevail, and the Legis-nister the affairs of the country unless it lature should persevere in aiding the efforts of the Government by improving the laws, he would entertain, in spite of the apprehensions of the noble Earl and the petitioners, confident and sanguine hopes of a successful issue. Having been all his life a firm supporter of emancipation, he had been unwilling to allow this opportunity to pass without addressing these few observations to their Lordships.

The Earl of Wicklow said, that the first act of his political life had been to give his support to the Roman Catholic Emancipation Bill. His noble Friend having appealed to all the advocates of that measure, to say whether the good they had expected from it had been obtained, he (the Earl of Wicklow) was ready to lay his hand on his heart and declare that it had produced all the good he ever expect ed from it. If he were again called on to give a vote on the question, he would give it in the affirmative. All the additional information he had acquired since 1829, the more confirmed him in his view. It was very easy to assert that all the evils of Ireland were to be ascribed to this Act, but it was very difficult to prove the assertion. It was not easy to say how much those evils might have been aggravated at the present moment had that measure not passed. For his part, looking at the spirit which had been afloat for some time, not only on the continent of Europe, but in this country, he was induced to think that most disastrous consequences might have ensued, had Government refused to concede the measure to the unanimous wishes of the people of Ireland, and to the wishes of the great proportion of the people of this country. [The Earl of Winchilsea: No, no.] It was asserted in Parliament when that measure was under discussion, and the opponents of the bill did not venture to deny it, that the great proportion of the people of this country were favourable to it; and the fact was proved by the circumstance that a majority of the representatives of the people demanded the measure, Session after Session, till at last no Government could have carried on

were carried. He agreed with his noble Friend in regretting the evil influence of the Irish Roman Catholic clergy, but he differed from his noble Friend's opinion that that influence was increased by the Emancipation Act. Before the passing of the Act, that influence was exercised in interfering with the elections to as great an extent as now, and he was as satisfied as he was of his own existence, that but for that Act it would have been, at this moment, much more formidable.

The Earl of Roden differed widely from the views of his noble Friend who had just spoken. Never could he forget the words of that great man who had so long filled the Woolsack, that the sun of England would set on the day when the Catholic Relief Bill passed. He looked upon the present condition of this country as far inferior to its condition before that measure became law. He lamented the increase in the number of Jesuits both in England and Ireland. He believed, that an under-current was now going forward in England, which would extend very widely the Roman Catholic religion. The noble Lord then proceeded to quote a passage from the 2nd chapter of the Secreta Monita of the order of Jesuits, a copy of which he said had lately been found in the library of the University of Dublin. It was to the following effect:-

"Princesses and women of quality are easily to be gained by the influence of their women of the bedchamber. Therefore, by all means, pay particular attention to their women, by favour of whom you will easily gain access to the family, no secret of which will remain hid

from us."

The Protestants of this country, he was happy to see, were now awakening from their late apathy, and he hoped that the people of England, and above all the. people of Scotland, who loved the religion of Protestantism, and had defended their Bibles with their swords, would not be deterred from expressing their sentiments on the important subject that now engaged their lordships.

The Marquess of Westmeath said, that

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