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Lord Lyndhurst said, that he was willing to support the appointment of an additional judge in Chancery, or of an equity judge in the Exchequer, or the appointment of both judges if required; but he did not enter into any detail. The motion was agreed to.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Friday, June 7, 1839.

MINUTES.] Petitions presented :-By Mr. KEMBLE, from Dulwich, against a clause in the Prisons Bill.-By Sir C.

FILMER, Sir E. KNATCHBULL, and Mr. GREENE, from a number of places, against the Government plan, for Na

tional Education.-By Mr. MILES, from a place, against

the Jamaica Bill.-By Sir G. GREY, from a place in Scotland, for measures to secure the printing correct verplace, against the Ecclesiastical Duties and Revenues

sions of the Scriptures.-By Mr. ESTCOURT, from some

Bill. By Lord DUNGANNON, from Birmingham, for

Church Extension in Canada.-By Sir E. KNATCHBULL,

and Mr. Hodges, from the Fruit Growers of Kent, for protection against the Foreign Grower.-By Colonel PER

CEVAL, from Sligo, against the conduct of Sheriffs, in the returning of Juries. By Mr. P. THOMSON, from in the Beer Act; also, for facilitating Inland Bonding. By Mr. R. STEUART, Mr. PACKE, Mr. KEMBLE, Lords MORPETH, and DUNGANNON, Mr. BAINES, Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE, SIR JAMES GRAHAM, and Captain PECHELL from two places, for a Penny Postage.

Manchester and Salford, against the proposed alterations

GOVERNMENT OF JAMAICA.] SECOND MEASURE.] On the motion of Mr. Labouchere, the Jamaica Bill was read a second time, and counsel were heard at the bar against the Bill.

Mr. Burge addressed the House on behalf of the Jamaica planters."

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Mr. Labouchere, in moving that the bill be committed on Monday, observed, that in the printing of the bill a material omission had been made in the second clause, whereby the meaning of the Government was considerably obscured. It was intended, although, as the clause now stood, it did not so appear, that ample time should be given to the House of Assembly to adopt the measure suggested by the Imperial Parliament. The error, which had been pointed out to the learned counsel who had just addressed the House, would of course be corrected in committee. He merely mentioned it now, to prevent the possibility of a mistake as to the real intention of the Government.

Sir E. Sugden thought it right to take that opportunity to state to the House the course which he intended to adopt with respect to this Bill. He intended to move

The Addresses of Mr. Burge and Mr. Serjeant Merewether to both Houses, will be found in the Appendix, at the end of the Session.

the omission of clause 1, and to give the Governor and Council the powers conferred upon them by the second section only, in case they agreed to revise, with a view to their continuance, those acts which were necessary for carrying on the government of the island. As he and the right hon. Gentleman were in fact agreed with respect to the second clause, the real motion which he intended to make would be the omission of the first clause.

Lord John Russell wished to understand clearly the intention of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and from what he had gathered from what the right hon. and learned Gentleman had said, it would seem that it was not his intention to take the sense of the House against going into committee, but only upon the omission of the first clause, which empowered the Colonial Legislature to enact new laws in conformity with the Orders in Council. It Would seem that it was the intention of the right hon. and learned Gentleman to retain the second clause so far as related to the re-enactment and continuance of the expired Laws; and if he had misunderstood the right hon. and learned Gentleman, he begged the right hon. and learned Gentleman to set him right.

Sir E. B. Sugden was understood to say, that the noble Lord had understood what had fallen from him correctly.

Bill to be committed on Monday next.

Mr. Hodges

DUTIES ON FRUIT.] moved, that a Select Committee be appointed to take into consideration the duty on the importation of Fresh Fruit.

Mr. P. Thomson, although he did not mean to oppose the motion of his hon. Friend, must say, that he did not think that any good object could be obtained by an inquiry into such a subject by a committee of that House. If, considering the nature of the climate of this country, that House were to legislate against the importation of apples at 5 per cent., all he could say was that he must give up all hope of carrying out those commercial principles which had been acted upon for years. It would seem that no question was now to be treated without reference to party; but he could not forget the time when he gave his support to both Mr. Canning and Mr. Huskisson, without being influenced by the views which seemed to actuate the hon. Gentlemen opposite. The growers of apples

complained that the duties were injurious | take place. He could not, however, help to them; but, for his own part, he con- saying that it was impossible for the right sidered this mere delusion on their part. hon. Gentleman to have refused a comEven, however, admitting that they did mittee after the mode in which he had receive injury, were not the wants of the introduced the Customs Bill last session. public to be consulted, or would any one It was introduced at so late a period, that contend for a moment that in years of no opportunity was afforded to those whose scarcity, the public should be compelled interests were materially affected by its to pay extravagantly for apples? He had provisions to offer the measure any opbeen furnished with a statement on the position, and it was, therefore, impossible subject, which he thought would set the to have refused an investigation, matter at rest, and from the documents which he held in his hand, it appeared that the price of apples in 1833 was 2s. 2d. per bushel; 1834, 3s. ditto; 1835, 2s. 4d. ditto; 1836, 3s. 6d. ditto; 1837, 1s. 9d. ditto; 1838, 4s. 6d. The duty was first imposed in 1838, and what was the result? Why, that instead of the price of apples being reduced, it was raised to 4s. 6d. the bushel. If this were the effect of the change, how, he should like to know, could it be alleged that the producers of this fruit had sustained loss by the alteration?

Sir E. Knatchbull would not follow the example set by the right hon. Gentleman of saying anything which could prejudice the fair consideration of this question by a Select Committee. It was a question which materially affected the poorer classes, and particularly those in Kent and Sussex. It had also a very important bearing on the question of tithes. He should not, however, say a word on its merits, as he hoped a fair investigation would take place when the House would be in a much better condition to decide.

Mr. Wallace considered that it was only by the introduction of foreign fruit that poorer classes could in all seasons obtain apple-dumplings. He should divide the House against the appointment of a Select Committee.

Mr. M. Philips said, the reason why the right hon. Gentleman had not introduced the bill at an earlier period of the session was, that he was prevented from bringing forward such measures till after the budget was submitted to the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He considered regularity of supply and moderate prices highly desirable to all classes, and in the article of fruit those objects, from the uncertainty of the climate, could not be attained, except by the introduction of foreign fruit. He had no objection to investigation.

Mr. Godson would express no opinion upon the merits of the question, but he could assure the House that other counties were as deeply interested in this matter as Kent and Sussex.

Mr. Darby thought this was a question which did not depend upon the budget, but if it did, that was only an argument for the production of the budget at an earlier period than usual. It was the general opinion of all classes, that if the act of last session were to continue in force, the proprietors of orchards in Kent and Sussex would be ruined.

The House divided:-Ayes 26; Noes 14; Majority 12.

List of the AYES.

Brotherton, J.
Darby, George
Godson, R.
Grimsditch, T.
Herries, J. C.
Ingham, Robert
Hurt, W.
Knatchbull, Sir E.
Mahon, Lord
Morris, D.
O'Ferrall, R. M.

Mr. Herries said, the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had taunted Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House with not having supported him in the liberal course of policy which he had pursued with regard to trade. There was certainly no ground for that taunt, for never had any Gentleman at the head of a public department been so little attacked by an Opposition as the right hon. Gentleman. As regarded the question under consideration, he should not, at that time, express an opinion on its merits. He should wait the result of the investigation which was to Aglionby, H. A.

Palmer C. F.
Pigot, D. R.
Philips, M.
Plumptre, J. P.

Pryme, G.
Rice, T. S.
Sheppard, T.
Stuart, R.
Talfourd, T. N.
Thomson, C. P.
Turner, William

Wilde, Thomas
Williams, W. A.
Wood, G. W.
Yates, J. A.

TELLERS.

Filmer, Sir E.
Hodges, T. L.

List of the Noes.
Bewes, T.

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{JUNE 10}

MINUTES.] Petitions presented. By the Duke of RUTLAND, and the Marquess of WINCHILSEA, from several places, against the Government plan of National EducaChurch Discipline Bill.-By the Duke of RUTLAND, the Earls of DURHAM, BELFAST, and HAREWOOD, Lords ASHBURTON, FAVERSHAM, and BROUGHAM, and Viscount Penny Postage. By Lord BROUGHAM, from Blackburne, for the Repeal of the Beer Laws.-By Lord MELBOURNE, from several places, against the Repeal of the Beer Laws. - By the Bishop of HEREFORD, for Church Extension in Canada.

tion; and by the latter, from Sudbury, against the

MELBOURNE, from a number of places, for a Uniform

ROMAN CATHOLIC CHANCELLOR AND ECCLESIASTICAL JUDGES.] Viscount Strangford said, he was extremely anxious to put a question to the noble Viscount opposite, on a subject which he conceived to be of great interest and importance to her Majesty's Protestant subjects. He perceived, from the printed votes of the House of Commons, that an hon. and learned Member of that Assembly had given notice of his intention to bring in a bill to enable persons professing the Popish faith to practise in the spiritual courts of these realms, and to hold the office of Lord High Chancellor. He could only know the circumstance through the channel to which he had alluded; but he had heard that the announcement was received with cheers by those to whose support the noble Viscount was mainly indebted for his small majorities, and that no expression of disgust or indignation came from the colleagues of the noble Viscount, they being the Protestant servants of a Protestant Sovereign. He now wished to ask, whether the measures, of which notice was thus given, were to be brought forward with the concurrence and sanction of any portion of that section of which it was said the present Cabinet was partly composed whether the Government had given any countenance to such a pro ceeding?

Viscount Melbourne: Certainly not. The subject was not introduced with the sanction or approbation of her Majesty's Government.

and Ecclesiastical Judges. 86 Viscount Strangford: I am very glad of it.

Lord Brougham said, such a proposition seemed to him to be as hopeless as it was absurd.

The Marquess of Londonderry expressed his astonishment, that certain statements which had been publicly made by an hon. Member of the other House, and which had been reiterated by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, had not met with the reprehension they deserved from the noble Viscount and his colleagues. They ought to have been the first to repel such base, unmanly, and wicked statements. Those speeches had, however, been suffered to pass unnoticed. No attempt had been made to check such proceedings. He believed, however, that Ministers could not help themselves; and, that being the case, he could assimilate the authority that was exercised over them in no other manner than by comparing it with that sort of control which Mr. Van Amburgh exercised over his lions.

The Marquess of Lansdowne rose to order. It was unusual and irregular to proceed with a discussion when there was no motion before the House.

The Marquess of Londonderry would meet the objection of the noble Marquess by moving the order of the day, though he did not think, looking to the constant practice of the House, that he was out of order. When a question was asked with reference to certain proceedings of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin, he certainly had a right to state his opinion as to the situation in which the Government was kept by that individual.

The Marquess of Lansdowne said, it certainly was out of order, after a question had been put and answered, to proceed with a discussion.

The Marquess of Londonderry would put it to the candour of the noble Marquess, whether these things were not constantly done? Whether they were not done night after night, and week after week? He would ask, was not the noble and learned Lord opposite constantly doing the same thing?

Lord Brougham said, certainly this course was often taken. The noble Marquess was not undoubtedly the first to adopt the practice, though he often recurred to it. He admitted, that he had himself sometimes followed the example of

the noble Marquess. The noble and I her, or who would more willingly sacrifice learned Lord was proceeding to state his his blood and life in her defence. Yet impression of the speeches which had been they found these infamous statements alluded to, when he was interrupted by concerning him openly made to the people The Marquess of Londonderry, who of Ireland-the most inflammable people complained that the noble and learned in the world-unreproved and uncensured. Lord was then speaking, there being no Those, however, who dealt in such calumquestion before the House. Surely, he nies would, in the end, be visited by the had a right to take the same latitude. just contempt of society.

Lord Brougham said, perhaps he might be excused, in consequence of some correspondence which had taken place with him on this subject. One of the hon. Members alluded to had denied having used certain very coarse expressions that had been imputed to him. He certainly felt that he ought to apologize to their Lordships for ever having entered into the subject at all. But he had deviated from his usual course, in consequence of the great respect which he owed to that illustrious family. He certainly spoke of the late Mr. Grattan, and he was greatly astonished that such sentiments should have been attributed to any relative of his.

The Marquess of Londonderry. Does he say, that he did not use the words imputed to him?

Lord Brougham. He declares that his expressions were not so strong as they have been represented.

Conversation ended.

IRISH PACKETS.] The Earl of Wicklow wished to put a question to the noble Earl at the head of the Admiralty on a subject of considerable importance, and which had recently become more important in consequence of the facility which the Liverpool railway afforded for communication with Dublin. Before the management of the mail packets was transferred from the Post-office to the Admiralty, a great advantage was derived from the Government packets conveying parcels of a certain weight, at a moderate charge, across the Channel. If the convenience were great at that time, it was infinitely greater now, in consequence of the formation of the railway. Since the transfer, the Admiralty had thought it necessary to appoint an agent for the transmission of parcels. He did not complain of the appointment in itself, but he complained that it was The Marquess of Londonderry. Can given in such a manner as to confer on the noble and learned Lord defend the the agent a complete monopoly with reexpressions of the hon. and learned Mem-spect to the transit of goods, and enabled ber for Dublin? him to impose such conditions as he Lord Brougham. Quite the contrary. pleased on that transit. The Government The Marquess of Londonderry said, had a right to choose the person who was then he would read what had been said to fill this situation, and he did not comby the hon. and learned Member for Dub-plain of the individual whom they had lin, from which the other hon. Member had not dissented. [Here the noble Marquess read an extract from Mr. O'Connell's speech, in which he spoke of the treacherous taking off of former sovereigns of these realms of the rather novel historical discovery, that the Duke of Buckingham had murdered the nephews of Richard 3rd -and expressed his opinion that the Queen's life would not be safe in the hands of the Tories.] Did Mr. Grattan, he would ask, in his speech, say less than that? Allusion had been made by that individual to an illustrious Friend of his (the Duke of Cumberland) who was not in this country. Now, he thought it was his duty in his place in that House to state, that her Majesty had not a subject in the realm more devotedly attached to

selected. That person was Mr. Peter Purcell, who had been one of the prime agitators of Ireland-a determined Precursor, and an active supporter of a gentleman who had been a good deal spoken of that evening. In consequence, however, of his having called for a detailed account of the funds of the Precursor Society, he believed that Mr. Purcell was no longer patronised in that quarter. Under such circumstances, it was probable, that were the appointment now to be made, he would not be favoured with it, but he had received it in June last. Now, what he complained of was this, that the agent thus appointed had a right to ask what sum he pleased for the transit of goods; and further, that he might refuse to take them unless he was employed to

forward them to whatsoever part of the country they were destined for. This was felt as a matter of great grievance and vexation to the other carriers in Dublin. He contended, that the noble Earl had no right to make an appointment to which such powers were attached. He ought not, for the sake of patronage, to have bestowed such a monopoly on any one individual. He had no right to deprive all other persons of the advantage of the transit of goods by those packets unless they also commissioned the Government agent to send them to those places for which they were ultimately intended, and unless they agreed to pay whatsoever sum he pleased to charge. He had himself felt the inconvenience of the system of which he complained, for many packages were transmitted to him from this country, and he had found the charges so high that he was actually obliged to forego the benefit of the railroad. He wished to know, whether it was intended to remove this evil?

veyance of those packages; but nothing of the nature of a monopoly was granted to him. It was thought advisable, that some person should be responsible to Government for the safe delivery of all packages, and that was the reason of the appointment. With regard to the future arrangement of the packets at the Admiralty, the contracts for the packets were that they should deliver the mails; they took no cognizance of them as passage boats for passengers or for parcels. The Admiralty had nothing to do with what they charged for them. If it were true, that this gentleman had abused his privilege, it was quite obvious that parties might send their packages by other steamers.

The Earl of Wicklow said, it was quite evident to him, that the noble Earl did not clearly understand the position he was explaining. He was aware, that the noble Earl had matters of greater importance to manage, and might not therefore have attended so closely to this; but he (the The Earl of Minto felt obliged to the Earl of Wicklow) was always disposed to noble Lord for having intimated his inten- think, that persons filling inferior position to him to bring forward the subject, tions were never guilty of abuses if proper which had enabled him to make such superintendence were exercised over them; inquiries as placed it in his power to give and, therefore, the responsibility rested a satisfactory answer. Originally, the with those whose duty it was to exercise Post-office packets had not been allowed that superintendence. It was quite clear to carry parcels at all; but in the course the noble Earl did not understand the of 1837, the Admiralty packets were al- subject, for he said it was no monopoly, lowed to take such packages as were as parties could send by other packets. usually conveyed by mail coach. The The very reason of establishing this mode superintendents of the Admiralty packets of conveyance was, that the Post-office had represented to the Post-office the great packets from their greater velocity afforded inconvenience of this, and wished the greater facilities for transmitting parcels, practice to be no longer continued. A and this advantage was now monopolized, communication to this effect had been and the public were deprived of it except made to the Treasury, but the Treasury at unreasonable charges, Mr. Purcell had ordered an arrangement to be made charging what he liked. for the transmission of such packages, and had directed Commander Chappel, of the Post-office packet station at Liverpool, to make the best arrangement for such transmission. About a month afterwards, an offer was made through Commander Chappel by Mr. Purcell, to undertake the conveyance of all parcels. He (Lord Minto) could assure the noble Lord, that the politics of Mr. Purcell were perfectly unknown at the Admiralty. Commander Chappel stated, that this Mr. Purcell was a considerable coach proprietor in Ireland, and was therefore a likely person to succeed with the arrangement. An arrangement was made with him as to the con

The Earl of Minto said, no doubt there must be some slight fault, but if the noble Earl had mentioned it to the Admiralty that there was any irregularity, or any abuse, or overcharge, the Admiralty would have paid immediate attention to such representation. He really knew nothing of the manner in which Mr. Purcell proceeded. He understood Mr. Purcell undertook to deliver the parcels to the parties to whom they were addressed. Subject dropped.

NATIONAL EDUCATION.] Lord Brougham, having presented a petition from a Dissenting congregation of Cote, in Ox

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