traffic increases, and the fuel man gets larger prices. But if you represent any people who own stocks and bonds in the Gulf and Santa Fe road, I can tell you that the fuel account has diminished instead of increased. You have got to take each particular road. The fuel account of the Southern Pacific in Texas and all those roads that burn oil has been cut in half, and they do not give the shipper any benefit whatever.

SATURDAY, January 28, 1905.

STATEMENT OF MURDO MACKENZIE.

Mr. MACKENZIE. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I do not want to detain you very long, but I would like to lay a few matters before you in connection with our business.

Mr. Cowan and myself were appointed by the cattle raisers of the West-I may say the stock raisers of the West-to come here and meet the committees of both the Senate and the House and explain to them, as far as lay in our power, the difficulties under which we are now working.

The reason why we did not have the larger delegation here is that we do not want to intrude too much on the committees or put in too much evidence. We thought if one or two people were appointed who knew the exact situation it would be more satisfactory to you than to have a great deal of rambling evidence that you would have to sift out to get what was worth looking at. For that reason the cattle raisers unanimously directed Mr. Cowan to appear here, as he is a man who has made a study of this for years. He knows our wants, and he can tell you in fewer words what our requirements are better than if we had a thousand people here. I only want to take a few minutes of your time, and then I will pass on to a few points I want to bring before you. But I want to impress upon you that Mr. Cowan is representing the stock raisers. He knows what their requirements are, and he can tell you about them. He is not extravagant in his demands. The cattlemen want what is right. If we did not want that I do not think we would come here to take your time.

The first point I want to bring before you is the increase in rates from Texas common points-say the Amarillo group of stations-to Dakota, and show you the difference between the rates charged us in 1896 and prior and the rates charged us to-day.

For one year we got our cattle hauled from Texas to Bellefourche and Bellefourche group of stations for $55 per car. I do not want to make any point about that, because it was in the nature of strong competition. At any rate, the railroads wanted the business at that rate. Next year they came to us and asked us if we would not agree to raise the rate to $65 per car; that if we would agree to give them $65 the rate should be satisfactory to us and that it would be perfectly satisfactory to them. That was a paying rate. This state of affairs continued

Senator FOSTER. What year was that?

Mr. MACKENZIE. That was in 1890, if I remember well. This state of affairs continued up until 1898. In 1899 they increased our rate, and from year to year continued increasing our rate, until to-day we are paying them $100 per car.

Now, gentlemen, they may be right about this. I am not going to say they are not, because I am not railroad man enough to say whether they are right or wrong; but I say this, that the ordinary layman, the ordinary cattleman, can not understand this one fact, for if we had to pay the railroads $65 per car from Amarillo common points to Bellefourche common points, and that rate was satisfactory, then $100 per car to-day is too much.

Senator MILLARD. Do you recollect the distance between those points?

Mr. MACKENZIE. Not exactly. I think the shortest cut is about 800 miles.

Senator FOSTER. How many head of cattle do you put in each car? Mr. MACKENZIE. From 30 to 40, if they are two-year-old steers. Senator DOLLIVER. Have you calculated what that rate would be by the hundred pounds?

Mr. MACKENZIE. No, sir; we did not weigh them. The cattle from Texas are shipped out in the spring, when they are very poor, to the northern ranges.

Senator DOLLIVER. Is feeding included in the transit rate?

Mr. MACKENZIE. No, sir; there is no such thing as a transit rate in the North. We do not ship the cattle over the same roads. We ship from Dakota over the Santa Fe, the Rock Island, the Fort Worth and Denver, and the Burlington lines, and they are shipped out east by the St. Paul, the Northwestern, the Great Northern, or the Northern Pacific. So that the one road had no connection with another.

Senator CLAPP. I think you did not understand Senator Dolliver's question. Does this include feeding in transit?

Mr. MACKENZIE. No, sir. You can not get that unless you get a continuation on the same road, and if you got that it would cost you more than the feed in transit.

Senator MILLARD. That is, the shipper pays the expense of loading and unloading?

Mr. MACKENZIE. In Texas they pay the expenses of the feeding on the road. In Colorado and in nearly all the other States the shipper has to load his own cattle. In Texas we do not.

Senator CARMACK. Do not the railroads claim that the cost of operation has absolutely increased?

Mr. MACKENZIE. They claim that, but we do not believe it. I think Mr. Cowan will tell you-and he knows more about it than I do that if you take all the freight that is carried over the roads, the rate per ton-mile, the expense per ton-mile, is no greater to-day than it was at the time we were getting our cattle hauled at $65 per car.

Senator CARMACK. Because they carry so much more freight?

Mr. MACKENZIE. The traffic is more dense and the facilities are greater for hauling cattle. The engines are heavier and can haul more cars. I think Mr. Cowan will show you without any trouble that, taking the traffic altogether, the cost per ton-mile, which is the only basis you can figure on, is not any greater now than it was when we got cattle hauled at $65.

Senator DOLLIVER. Have you made any calculation as to what this rate is per ton-mile?

Mr. MACKENZIE. I could give it to you, but I haven't it now. I think Mr. Cowan can give it to you now. I am not in a position to give it myself, at this moment.

Senator DOLLIVER. Judge Cowan, if you will make that calculation I would like it.

Mr. COWAN. I can procure it, but I haven't it here. None of these rates are fixed on that basis.

Mr. MACKENZIE. They are not fixed at so much per hundredweight. They are fixed at the rate of $100 per car.

Senator CARMACK. The point I want you to elucidate, if possible, is the question of justification of increased rates by reason of increased cost of railroad operation.

Mr. COWAN. Mr. Mackenzie is not familiar with that.

Senator MILLARD. How many times are the cattle unloaded in that distance?

Mr. MACKENZIE. They are unloaded twice; that is, we feed them. twice if we get a good run. I ship my own cattle and unload but once. But the service is so poor now that if we get them to their destination by feeding twice we are in luck. There is no reason in the world why cattle should not be hauled 800 miles with one feeding, but if you get service that will only give you 10 or 12 miles an hour, you can not make it. That is what we are subjected to. We not only have to pay our rates, but they have given us service to please themselves. They must have the tonnage. The cattlemen demand a service of 18 to 20 miles an hour, and that is not excessive. I do not think there is a man in the railroad business who will say to you here that the demand of the cattlemen of 18 miles an hour is at all excessive.

Senator DOLLIVER. Is there any proposition pending anywhere to regulate the speed of railway trains? Is that included in any pending bills?

Mr. MACKENZIE. I think so. Isn't that so, Mr. Cowan?
Mr. COWAN. No, sir; I don't think it is.

Mr. MACKENZIE. At any rate, we feel that our goods are perishable, and we feel that we have the right to decent service. We do not feel that we should be sidetracked, any more than the people who ship vegetables and other green goods, while a fruit train from California passes us. We feel strongly that the railroads have come into such combination that they can treat us just as they please.

Now, gentlemen, I have touched on the rate to Dakota, and now I am going to give you a little history of the rate to Kansas City from the same points. Prior to 1898 we paid $62.50 per car. In 1896 they

changed the rate from dollars per car to cents per hundredweight. In doing this the railroads suggested that it was only fair to our cattle people to pay so many cents per hundredweight, and we agree with them, but in doing this they made the minimum car load rate 22,000 pounds.

Senator DOLLIVER. What is the rate per hundredweight?

Mr. MACKENZIE. At that time it was 28 cents-that is, they figured it at 28 cents. The rate per car was $62.50, and in finding the rate per hundredweight they divided the $62.50 by 22,000 pounds instead of by 25,000, that being the weight that a car can carry. If they had divided the $62.50 by 25,000 pounds the rate per hundredweight would have been that much less. If we put in a full carload of steers weighing 25,000 pounds we have to pay the difference between 22,000 pounds and 25,000 pounds at the rate of 20 cents per hundredweight. In other words, they raise our rates, by one stroke of the pen, about $8 or

$10 per car. We can prove that we can put in 25 steers weighing 25,000 pounds. Of course we can not put in the same weight of cows, but we don't object to paying the $62.50 for the cows, even if they do not have the weight.

Senator DOLLIVER. What is the distance to Kansas City?

Mr. MACKENZIE. About 550 miles. We do not object to paying $62.50 for the cows, even if we could not put in the weight; but we do object to their making us pay that much extra for 3,000 pounds when we are compelled to put in that much weight to load the car properly. It is just as injurious to cattle to underload them as it is to overload them. Cattle must be properly loaded, otherwise they will be damaged.

When they raised our rate to 28 cents per hundredweight the rate was $70 per car of 25,000 pounds, and they tried to make us believe at the same time they were giving us the same rate as before.

At the beginning of 1900 they raised the rates to 314 cents per hundredweight, making the rate per car $28.75. In 1903 they raised our rate to 344 cents, making the per-car rate $86.26 on 25,000 pounds, and making a total increase of $23.75 on a carload of steers. It does not show so badly on cows, because, as a rule, cows weigh 22,500 per carload, but the increase during the three years in carrying carloads of cattle from Amorillo common points to market is $18.30.

Senator DOLLIVER. Was that matter ever presented to the Interstate Commerce Commission?

Mr. MACKENZIE. Yes, sir. We have it before them now.

Senator DOLLIVER. According to your statement that has been going on for a long time.

Mr. MACKENZIE. Yes, sir; we tried one case before the courts and we had to retry it. We brought suit before the Commission in February last year, and we tried the case for five weeks--two weeks at Fort Worth at different times, for one week in Chicago, one week in St. Louis, and one week in Denver.

Senator DOLLIVER. Has there been any abuse in the cattle country of railroads giving secret rates to favored shippers?

Mr. MACKENZIE. Prior to the dates I have given you here they were very anxious to get the business at $62.50 and give from $10 to $12 rebate. That was in the days when there was competition. We have no competition now.

Senator DOLLIVER. In other words, the rebate has been abolished? Mr. MACKENZIE. The rebate has been abolished, so far as we know. Senator DOLLIVER. Competition took the form of rebates, as a rule. Mr. MACKENZIE. But, Senator, who got the rebates? The rebates went into the pockets of the railroads, and they were just getting that much more. They have never done away with that.

Senator DOLLIVER. What do you mean by the rebate going into the pockets of the railroads?

Mr. MACKENZIE. They made the provision in fixing the rate at $62.50 that they had to give us certain rebates.

Senator DOLLIVER. Did they charge anybody $62.50?

Mr. MACKENZIE. That was the published rate.

Senator DOLLIVER. But did they charge anybody that?

Mr. MACKENZIE. Oh, yes; lots of them.

Senator DOLLIVER. So that these people who had rebate contracts had that discrimination in their favor?

Mr. MACKENZIE. Yes, sir; that is what we kick about. Instead of putting down the rates when the rebates were stopped, and giving all the shippers the benefit, they put up the rates.

Senator DOLLIVER. They have not put them any higher than the original published rates?

Mr. MACKENZIE. Yes, sir; they have raised them from 28 cents to 34 cents in five or six years.

Senator DOLLIVER. Not only are the rebates gone, but the old rates are gone?

Mr. MACKENZIE. Yes, sir; and they are charging us more, while the service is poorer. They will not haul trains for us unless they get the tonnage that the engine is rated for.

Senator DOLLIVER. They will not start the train?

Mr. MACKENZIE. They will start it, but you will be sorry when they have gone a piece that it was started.

Senator DOLLIVER. Is there anybody that expects to see restored the old short time and fast trains in the railroad freight business?

Mr. MACKENZIE. We don't expect to get small trains and fast time, but we expect trains that will go at a reasonable rate.

Senator DOLLIVER. What is the occasion of the delay of these long trains?

Mr. MACKENZIE. A short time ago, last fall, I had a shipment from Texas that went to Kansas City. I went with it myself a certain part of the road, and when I got to Delhart the Rock Island people told me that they hadn't a sufficient tonnage to send me out; that we would have to unload the cattle. That was 25 miles from where I started. I had to unload the cattle in order to let them get their proper tonnage. Senator DOLLIVER. How long did this make you wait?

Mr. MACKENZIE. They didn't make me wait at all when I told them who I was. They sent me on, but they delayed me on the road, I think it was twelve or fifteen hours, loading cattle. I gave special instructions and specific instructions that those cattle should not be unloaded, because in twenty-eight hours they can be taken to market with a reasonable run They kept me on the road while they were switching and doing one thing or another until they got to Herrington, Kans., within seven hours of the market. I left my man with the cattle, going on to Kansas City myself, and they told him that the Humane Society wouldn't allow him to send on the cattle, because the twenty-eight hours had expired. He was helpless, and so the cattle were brought up to the pen to unload. That was 8 o'clock at night, and at 10 the next morning the cattle were taken off the cars to be fed. The Humane Society was in bed all this time and paid no attention to them.

Senator DOLLIVER. Have you now no remedy at law?

Mr. MACKENZIE. I have; but it is a hardship for every little cattleman to have to go to law with a corporation, and not one corporation only, for they all join in fighting us, and it would cost me more and cost a little cattleman more, if he was in the same position as myself, to fight those people than the cattle were worth.

What we want is this, gentlemen. We want protection from the law; we want protection from the Interstate Commerce Commission, that they shall be empowered to regulate this matter, not only so far as rates are concerned, but to regulate the service we are entitled to, and