Scotia around Cape Breton, on the eastern side of New Brunswick, around Prince Edward Island, around the Magdalenes, on the Canadian coast of Labrador, and am well acquainted with the inshore fisheries along the southern coast of Nova Scotia.

2. When in the North Bay, about eight or nine years ago, I saw large numbers of American mackerelmen. From calculations then made by Nova Scotia fishermen, we concluded that there were upwards of three hundred American vessels in the North Bay. I was in the North Bay the fall in of 1872, and the mackerel were very plentiful. I was about a fortnight ago engaged in fishing on the eastern side of Cape Breton. I was at Gabarus, Louisburg, St. Ann's Ingonish, Bras D'Or, and Smoky Cape, and around Cape North, and I found the fish there very plentiful— the mackerel more plentiful than the oldest inhabitant has any recollection of. The mackerel are of most excellent quality, being very large. Those mackerel are found inshore, within three miles of the shore, and it would not pay any vessel to go to the North Bay unless they could catch mackerel within three miles of the shore.

3. The American vessels make, on an average, two trips when engaged in taking mackerel. The Americans in a good season take, on an average, about three hundred barrels of mackerel to each vessel on each trip. These mackerel vessels carry from ten to twenty hands to each vessel. The American vessels which run into the North Bay take from five hundred to a thousand quintals to each vessel. When on the Cape Breton coast last year I saw an American vessel which took from six to seven hundred quintals of codfish seven miles from Sydney Light, and only changed her ground three times, as I was informed by the American skipper. The Americans take the most of the codfish in the North Bay by trawling. This trawling I consider injurious to the fishery, as it takes all the mother fish. In hand-lining very few mother fish are taken. When on the Canadian coast of Labrador, I saw the Americans take large quantities of codfish inshore, within three miles of the shore.

4. In my experience, the mackerel fishery has always varied, being good for a number of years and again poor. In the falls of seventy-one, seventy-two, and seventy-three, the mackerel were very plentiful. The cod-fishery has generally been good, except when bait is scarce.

5. The Americans formerly carried on the mackerel fishery with hook and line. They now use purse-seines, which I consider very injurious to the mackerel fishery. I saw, four years ago, two large American schooners engaged in taking mackerel at Cape Canso with purse-seines, within a half a mile of the shore. These vessels carried about eight hundred barrels of mackerel each. The Americans now take all their codfish by trawling. The Americans around the Magdalenes and on the Labrador coasts take herring by seining on the shore.

6. The throwing overboard of offal, in my opinion, is injurious to the fishery, as it pollutes the water, gluts the fish, and drives them away. 7. In my experience, the Americans fished inshore whenever they could. They made off shore when a cutter appeared and returned when she disappeared. They lee-bowed us Nova Scotian vessels, weatherbowed us, ran into us, and did nearly what they pleased, and have almost entirely, since 1871, driven our vessels out of the mackerel fishing. When the fishery was protected, and the Americans had not the right of fishing into the shore, our vessels made better fares.

8. In my opinion, the inshore fish are double the value of the off shore catch in Canadian waters.

9. The Americans get bait and ice all along our coast in the bays and harbors. They jig squid in any harbor, cove, and creek, and wherever

they can find them. They buy herring and mackerel. They do so because it saves time and the expense of fitting out their vessels with net. The Americans being allowed to get bait, interfere with our vessels, as they come at a time when herring and mackerel are scarce. Last year an American vessel loaded with halibut inside of the Kettle, between Scaterie and the main-laud, and trawl around there for halibut.

10. Since seventy-three the mackerel fell off until this year, when they are very plenty again. On the banks the codfish during the past six years have fallen off to some extent. This the fishermen attribute to too much trawling.

11. The herring fishery is all inshore in Canadian waters, and the Americans catch them for bait, as already stated.

12. I have often heard the Americans say that our fall mackerel is much superior to theirs.

13. The mackerel make inshore to feed. They trim the shore, are taken inshore, and I consider them an inshore fish.

14. I have often seen the Americans transship their cargoes at the Strait of Canso, and in a good season they would save from two to three thousand dollars to each vessel by so doing. By this privilege they save time, expense, and catch more fish. They are enabled to refit and remain constantly on the ground.

15. The Americans get bait and ice in this county in large quantities, and without this bait and ice in which to keep it fresh it would be impossible for the Americans to carry on the deep-sea fishery. When the Americans come on to our coast they make every effort to get bait, and ice in which to keep it fresh, because they say that without this bait and ice they could catch no fish.

16. I have never known nor heard of any Canadian vessel fishing in American waters, and I consider this right to be of no value to Canadian fishermen.

17. Such large numbers of Americans carry off great quantities of fish and make them scarce for our fishermen. They injure our grounds by throwing overboard large quantities of offal, and by trawling. They interfere with our supply of ice and bait.

18. It would be a great benefit, in my opinion, if the Americans were excluded from our fishing grounds, particularly our inshore fisheries. JOHN MORIEN.

Sworn to at Port Medway, in the county of Queen's, this 14th day of August, A. D. 1877, before me.

No. 135.

E. C. SEELY, J. P.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, JOHN SMELTZER, of Lunenburg Town, in the county of Lunenburg, master mariner, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been engaged in the fisheries for about thirty-five years; for twenty-seven years I have fished as master in a vessel of my own with eleven hands. I have fished along the coast of Nova Scotia, eastern side of Cape Breton, around Prince Edward Island, and in the Bay of Chaleurs, on the east coast of New Brunswick, and have been Bank fishing, and am at present well acquainted with the inshore fishery in Lunenburg County. I have fished mackerel, herring, codfish, halibut, bake, haddock, and pollock.

2. About eleven years ago, when in the Bay of Chaleurs, I saw in Malpeque Harbor, Prince Edward Island, about seventy sail at one time, all American fishing vessels. Last fall I saw around Port Hood about seventy sail of American vessels at one time. American mackerelmen average about fifteen men. I have seen as many as thirty men in one American mackerelman. American codfishmen carry from twelve to twenty men. Mostly all the mackerel is taken inshore, and I would not give a pin for all taken outside of three miles.

3. The Americans averaged about from five to six hundred barrels of mackerel in the season to each vessel. American cod-fishermen take from one to three thousand quintals to each vessel. American mackerelmen make about three trips, cod-fishermen the same.

4. Mackerel, in my experience, have often varied. About fifteen years ago they were very scarce; since that time they have often been plenty. Some years they strike in very plenty, other years they are scarce, and this is my experience for forty years. Herring fishery remains about the same. Codfish can always be had if bait is plenty.

5. Americans take mackerel inshore mostly with hook and line; and I have seen Americans within three miles of the shore at Cascumpec, Prince Edward Island, use purse seines, about eleven years ago. The Americans carry on cod and halibut fishing mostly by trawling, some with hook and line.

6. The Americans throw overboard the offal of the fish when codfishing, and particularly the sound bone, which is very injurious to the fish and fishing ground, and I have myself caught large codfish with the sound bone in them, and they were reduced to mere skeletons.

7. The Americans, in my experience, always fished inshore when they could for mackerel. I have seen them fish in so close to the shore that their vessels grounded. When a cutter hove in sight they got away as quickly as they could, and came inshore again whenever the cutter was out of sight. Out of Lunenburg County, about fifteen years ago, there were from thirty to forty vessels engaged in mackerel-fishing, and when this fishery was protected by cutters our vessels made good fares. Since the Americans have been admitted to the inshore fishery our vessels have done very poorly.

8. The inshore fisheries are of much greater value than the outside fisheries. The inshore fisheries are worth four times that of the outside fisheries.

9. About fifteen years ago I have seen American vessels fishing for mackerel in the back harbor of Lunenburg, and I have baited an American vessel in this barbor about five years ago. Other parties have often baited American vessels in the harbor. The Americans mostly purchase the bait they get, in order to save time.

10. In the North Bay I have seen Americans catch codfish inshore, and large quantities of codfish are taken inshore by Canadian fishermen, and also halibut.

11. Since 1871 fish have fallen off somewhat. This, I think, is owing to the large number of Americans who visit our shores to take fish.

12. The herring fishery is all inshore, and the Americans buy them from our fishermen in order to save time, as also do the vessels which we fit out ourselves in order to save time.

13. The run of mackerel is sometimes of better quality than at others. When our run of mackerel is good it cannot be beaten, and three falls ago I was in Boston market with our mackerel, and it was much superior, to any mackerel which I there saw.

14. Mackerel follow the shrimp inshore, and spawn inshore in the bays and harbors around our coasts.

15. About Canso I have often seen Americans land and dry their nets. This privilege I consider of great value to them, as it enables them to carry on the inshore net fishery.

16. I have seen Americans transship their cargo at Canso, and by so doing they save a great deal of time, and catch more fish. They save from two to three weeks in the best of the season.

17. If the Americans could not procure bait inshore from Canadian fishermen, and ice in which to pack it, they could not carry on, in my opinion, the Bank fishing with success, and they buy bait, as already stated, in order to save time. They could not preserve their bait without ice, and they get ice along the coast near where they get bait.

18. I do not know nor have I ever heard of any Canadian vessels fishing in American waters, and I consider this privilege of no value.

19. In fitting out vessels, which I have often done, the Americans make bait and ice scarce because of the larger quantities of herring and mackerel they take away before these fish become plenty, and thus hinder our fishing vessels. They make the fish scarce for our inshore fishermen.

20. In my opinion our fisheries would be more than double their present value to us if the Americans were excluded.

JOHN SMELTZER.

Sworn to at Lunenburg, in the county of Lunenburg, this 4th day of August, A. D. 1877, before me.

JOSEPH W. LOCKHART, J. P.

No. 136.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, ELIAS RICHARDS, of Getson's Cove, in the county of Lunenburg, fishermau, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been fishing for the last thirty years continuously. I have fished along the southern coast of Nova Scotia, around Prince Edward Island, around the Magdelenes, and along the Canadian coast of Labra. dor. I have taken all the kinds of fish found on the above-mentioned coasts. I am also well acquainted with the inshore fishery in Lunenburg County. I have also been engaged in banking fishing to a large extent.

2. For twenty-four falls I fished in the North Bay successively, except one or two falls, down to the fall of seventy-five, inclusive, for mackerel. I have seen in the North Bay, at one time together, over four hundred American mackerel-vessels in Malpeque, and in Port Hood; in Malpeque there were so many that I could not anchor, and ran ashore. Dur ing the past five or six years I was in the North Bay I have seen from 200 to 300 American mackerelmen, and every fall I was there it was quite common to count from one hundred to one hundred and fifty American vessels from the deck of our schooner. There were many there which I did not see. These vessels took the most of their mackerel within three miles of the shore, sometimes close into the shore, and it would not pay vessels to go into the North Bay to fish mackerel unless they could take them within three miles of the shore.

3. These American mackerelmen carry from twelve to twenty-two

hands to each vessel. In a good season one of the larger vessels usually takes from five to six hundred barrels. These vessels make from two to three trips.

4. Every year down to seventy-seven I have seen many American codfish-vessels in the North Bay taking codfish. They have increased every year, and this year I have seen more than ever before. These codfish-vessels carry from ten to fourteen men. These vessels take from five to six hundred quintals of fish to each vessel, and make about two trips. These American vessels fished in among the boats and wherever they could catch fish.

5. On the Labrador coast I have seen Americans seine codfish close in on the shore, and have seen engaged there four at one time.

6. Around the Magdalenes I have seen the Americans take herring all inshore. I have seen there at one time from sixty to seventy vessels at one time. These vessels carry from eight to ten men each, and take from nine hundred to ten hundred barrels each.

7. In my experience, mackerel have varied, being some years plenty and others scarce. The herring fishery seldom varies, being mostly always good. The codfish has fallen off some.

8. In former years the Americans took mackerel with hook and line; they now take large quantities with purse seines. They take nearly all the codfish by trawling. Most of the American codfish-vessels carry seven thousand books each.

9. The Americans throw overboard the "gurry," which is an injury to the fishery, as it gluts the fish and drives them away. Trawling I consider injurious to the fishery, as it takes the mother fish, which are full of spawn. In hand-lining few mother fish are taken. The Americans have made a habit of throwing overboard the small fish, and an American skipper told me last summer that of forty-five quintals or upwards, which he took upon his trawls, he only saved from fifteen to eighteen quintals; the remainder he threw away.

10. In my experience the Americans fished inshore whenever they could, whatever the conditions of the treaty were. They made off when a cutter appeared and returned when she disappeared.

11. The value of the inshore catch in Canadian waters is more, in my opinion, than double the offshore catch, in value.

12. Nearly all the Americans carry purse seines, which I consider a very bad way of taking mackerel. I have never seen nor heard of any Canadian vessel using a purse seine.

13. I have seen the Americans catch squid for bait in the Canadian bays and harbors, within three miles of the shore. I have seen them catch these squid at the Strait of Canso, and at Crow Harbor, and other places. The Americans buy herring and mackerel all along our coast from Cape Sable to Labrador, wherever they can get it, and ice in which to keep it fresh. This privilege of getting ice and bait accorded to the Americans interferes with Canadian bankers, making bait and ice dearer and

scarcer.

14. The Americans buy bait in order to save time and expense, and without this bait, and ice in which to keep it fresh, they could not carry on the deep-sea fishery.

15. The Americans, since 1871, have injured the Canadian fisheries by taking great quantities of fish, by improper methods of fishing, and by interfering with the supply of ice and bait.

16. The mackerel feed, to a considerable extent, on shrimps found in shore, they spawn inshore, and are an inshore fish.

17. The privilege accorded to the Americans of taking fish and trans