7. These American vessels fishing on these Banks and throwing the offal overboard cause great destruction to the cod by the codfish swallowing the heads and spinal bone, thus choking themselves; besides, it drives the cod off the grounds on which these offals are thrown.

8. American vessels fishing on the Bank of Natashquan or any other Bank in the gulf, cannot carry on the fishery with profit, or at all, unless they obtain the right of taking bait on shore, that is, in British waters. It is true they might bring salted clams from their own country or herring from the Gut of Canso, and sometimes take fresh herring on the Bank with drift nets, but this bait cannot be depended upon, and no schooner could make a profitable voyage under those circumstances; and without the right of taking fresh bait on our shores no American schooners could continue to fish on the Banks.

9. At Bonne Esperance, Five Leagues, Middle Bay, Belles Amours, Bradore, Blanc Sablon, the Americans use seines for taking cod; these they haul on shore, and by means of these seines they take large quantities of codfish-large and small-many of the small ones too small to be cured, and they have to be thrown away, thus causing a wanton waste of this precious fish. Two years ago, at Blanc Sablon, some American fishermen threw away six boat-loads of small fish which had been taken in the seine. This way of taking fish is an injury to the fishing ground, to the fish itself, which it destroys without profit, and to the fishermen who fish with hook and line.

10. The herring is a fish that is found in great abundance on this coast, and they spawn at many places, particularly at Betchewar, St. Genevieve, Pashashubac, Kejasca, Washsbucootai, Coacoachoo, and many other places to the eastward. American fishing-vessels have been in the habit of visiting the coast between Washshucootai and Coacoachoo, both inclusive, for the purpose of taking herring for the last twenty years. They take this herring with seines, which they draw on shore. About 20 American schooners went there this year; the ordinary fishing schooners for herring took about 1,000 barrels each, and one threemasted schooner took 6,000 barrels (six thousand). This load was for the Norwegian market, and the vessel sailed directly from Washshucootai for Norway. During the last twenty years about the same number of vessels have loaded herring each year.

11. I am also acquainted with the fisheries of the north and south coasts of the island of Anticosti. The fisheries carried on there are those of cod, herring, and mackerel, and halibut, and are all carried on within three miles of the coast, there being no fishing beyond that limit; so that any vessel coming to fish there must fish within British waters. Some American schooners, about eight or nine, come to fish herring on the north coast of Anticosti, at Fox Bay, or Belle Bay. Some of them loaded there, others went to complete their load at Washshucootai. They have been in the habit of coming for a number of years till this year.

12. About fifteen years ago American vessels began to come and fish for halibut on the coast of Anticosti, and they fished there until this year. They also fished on this coast, and even in the harbor of Esquimaux Bay. I cannot state exactly what number, but I can say that they fished so exhaustively that they have nearly destroyed all the halibut on these fishing grounds.

13. The competition of so many American vessels in our waters is injurious in a very great degree to our fisheries and to our fishing interest; and the fishermen of this country have a much smaller chance of taking fish when they have so many American fishing-vessels on the

same fishing grounds as themselves than if they were left alone. It is consequently the interest of this country to keep the fisheries in our own hands if possible.

14. The right of fishing in American waters is of no value to us.

15. The privilege of selling our fish duty free in the United States is no use to us; our fish is not prepared for that market.

16. All the coasts that I have mentioned in and about the gulf of the St. Lawrence are very accessible to American fishermen, and they possess numerous harbors and good anchorage grounds, where their ves sels can lay with safety. They also can and do procure wood and water and other supplies.

17. The advantage of fishing in the inshore waters is a very great one to the Americans. If they could only fish on the outside Banks, they would do but little harm to us, and would have but poor success themselves.

18. I rate the advantage to the Americans of fishing in our inshore waters and taking bait on our shores at from 75 (seventy-five) to 90 (ninety) per cent. on the total value of the fish caught.

I hereby swear that the above statement, is to the best of my knowledge and belief, correct.

his

JULIEN + BOUDREAU. mark.

Witness:

WM. WAKEHAM.

The said Julien Boudreau, of Esquimaux Point, has sworn to the truth of this affidavit, at Esquimaux Point, in the county of Saguenay, and Province of Quebec, this 8th day of August, A. D. 1877, before me. P. FORTIN, J. P.

No. 231.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, PHILIP TOUZEL, of Sheldrake, of the county of Saguenay, in the Province of Quebec, postmaster, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have lived here for the last 21 years, and for three years previous to that I came every summer to this coast to carry on the cod fishery. I am a practical fisherman, and also fish merchant, and am well acquainted with the fisheries of this place and the neighborhood. The fisheries on this coast are cod, herring, mackerel, and halibut; of these the cod is the chief by far.

2. These fisheries are carried on within three miles of the shore, except that sometimes the fishermen take codfish on a Bank 7 miles from the shore. This Bank is a continuation of the St. John's Bank.

3. The quantity of codfish on this coast, I think, is now as great as ever it was, though of course the catch varies, some years there being more, some less.

4. Halibut were formally plentiful on this coast, and the fishermen could take plenty with hand-lines, especially off Shallop River and Manitou River. American fishing schooners, equipped purposely for halibut-fishing, began to show themselves on this part of the coast about ten years ago, as far as I can remember, although some might have come before. We used to see three or four at once off this place; those

vessels used to make two, sometimes three, trips each season; they kept their halibut fresh on ice. All these vessels took full loads at each trip; they were from 70 to 80 tons each, and could take on an average seventy or eighty thousand (80,000) pounds of fish each. These vessels continued to fish here till about three years ago, keeping here sometimes as late as the beginning of November. During the time that they had no right to fish, that is, between the time of licenses and the commencement of the Treaty of Washington, they came here in spite of the coast-guard. cruisers.

5. I believe the present scarcity of halibut on this coast is owing to the immense numbers of that fish that were taken by the Americans; but if this fishery is left unmolested for a few years I am sure it will become soon as productive as it ever was.

6. This coast is very accessible for fishing boats and vessels, as it is full of harbors and roadsteads, and the shores abound with bait.

7. The bait found here in abundance is caplin, launce, herring, squid, and clams. Launce, caplin, and clams are the most plentiful throughout the season.

S. The halibut schooners take a supply of bait with them from the United States; after this is used up they take their bait on our shore. A vessel equipped for Bank fishing for cod or halibut, which would come to fish on the Bank above described, might at times find bait on this Bank in the shape of herring or mackerel, but more than half the time they would have to come to the shore to take bait, and foreign fishermen, not having acquired the right by treaty to fish in our waters, could not, therefore, take their bait on shore, and in consequence would not be able to carry on their Bank fishing.

9. While it is a great advantage to American fishermen to have the right to fish in our waters, it is not of the least use to our fishermen to have the same right with regard to United States waters, as there is no chance of our ever going there.

10. And the American free market is also of no use to our fishermen, for our fish are cured especially for home consumption or for exportation to Europe and the Brazils. These markets are large enough to take all the fish we can supply.

11. I consider it a matter of the utmost importance to our fishermen to have, if possible, our fisheries reserved exclusively to ourselves, as the competition carried on by Americans is most injurious, and will soon deprive our fishermen of their occupation, and oblige them to emigrate. I hereby swear that the above statement is, to the best of my knowledge and belief, correct.

PHILIP TOUZEL.

The said Philip Touzel has sworn to the truth of the above affidavit at Sheldrake, in the county of Saguenay, of the Province of Quebec, this seventh day of August, A. D. 1877, before me.

P. FORTIN, J. P.

No. 232.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington:

I, SAMUEL BOUCHARD, of Amherst Harbor, Amherst Island, Magdalen Islands, make oath and say as follows:

1. I am 40 years of age. I was born here. I have fished for 20 years

at the Magdalen Islands and on the north shore from Natashquan to Belleisle.

2. The herring spawn here every spring, and never failed since I remember; they spawn in May.

3. The mackerel also spawn here in the month of June. They spawn in deeper water than the herring, and do not spawn till after the herring.

4. The Americans fish here for berring every spring. They generally haul their seines from the shore.

5. I fished on board American schooners for two seasons, 21 years ago. I fished all round the Magdalen Islands, and on the north shore of the island of Prince Edward, and in the Bay of Chaleur; and the greatest part of the fish taken by these American vessels was so taken close along the shore, and within 3 miles of the coast. We found greater facilities for taking mackerel close inshore, because mackerel are generally more abundant inshore, as they find inshore a greater quantity of small fish upon which they feed. We made one trip each season, taking 400 barrels each trip.

6. From 250 to 300 sail of American mackerel fishers fish in and around the Magdalen Islands each season, and I have seen 100 in Pleasant Bay at one time; and only the other day I saw 72 American vessels anchored off Etang du Nord. The schooners we see this year are of much larger tonnage than we used to see formerly. Some are from 100 to 150 tons, and have two seines on board. They practice mackerelseining now more than they used to here formerly, though they also, even the seiners, use the hook and line. The schooners, when loaded, carry from 300 to 400 barrels, that is, the ordinary sized ones; but the large ones can carry as much as a thousand barrels.

I hereby swear that the above affidavit is, to the best of my knowledge and belief, correct.

SAMUEL BOUCHARD.

The said Samuel Bouchard, of Amherst Harbor, Magdalen Islands, county of Gaspé, and Province of Quebec, has sworn, at Amherst Harbor, as above, to the truth of this above affidavit, this twenty-first day of August, A. D. 1877, before me.

No. 233.

P. FORTIN, J. P.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, GABRIEL SEABOYER, of Lower LaHave, in the county of Lunenburg, master mariner, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been engaged in the fisheries for forty years. I have fished as master about eleven years, and have also been interested for the same period of time in vessels engaged in the fisheries. I have fished along the southern coast of Nova Scotia, around Cape Breton, Prince Edward Island, eastern coast of New Brunswick, and around the Magdalenes and Lower St. Lawrence. I have fished mackerel, herring, and codfish on the above-mentioned coast, and am at present well acquainted with the inshore fisheries in Lunenburg County.

2. I have seen in the North Bay at one time upwards of one hundred sail, the most of whom were Americans; and I have seen at Pleasant Bay a fleet of upwards of two hundred sail, most of whom were Ameri

cans. Those vessels were engaged in mackerel-fishing, and they took mackerel mostly all within three miles of the shore; and in my experi ence I never saw any large quantity of mackerel taken beyond three miles from the shore. I have made calculations, along with other captains, and we concluded that there were nine hundred sail of American fishing vessels in the North Bay.

3. The Americans carry from fourteen to twenty men on board their mackerelmen, and took from three to four hundred barrels on board each vessel; some took as high as seven hundred barrels. They made from two to three trips. American codfish vessels carry from ten to fifteen men, and take in the bay from seven to ten hundred quintals to each vessel, on each trip, and make about two trips. I have often seen Americans in the spring of the year lying along Cape North, in Cape Breton, within three miles of the shore, engaged in taking codfish; and the vessels which now go from here to take codfish, fish close in to the shore.

4. In my experience the mackerel fishery has varied. It may have fallen off some during the past few years, which, I think, has arisen from over-fishing. Codfish can almost always be taken plentifully if bait is plenty. The herring fishery is good and has always remained the same.

5. The Americans took mackerel with hook and line and now use purse-seines. They take codfish mostly by trawling, which I consider a very improper method of taking fish. Trawling takes the spawn fish, as the bait lies quietly upon the bottom. In hand-lining spawn fish are seldom taken. The Americans trawled for codfish ever since I can remember. Our fishermen only commenced to trawl about five years ago, and were driven to this plan to compete with the Americans. I have seen American schooners take large quantities of herring inshore around the Magdalenes; some schooners took as many as two thousand barrels. Those herring were taken with seines.

6. In my opinion throwing overboard offals is injurious to the fishing grounds, and the sound bone which is thrown over kills many large fish.

7. The Americans always fished inshore when they could. When a cutter was in sight they disappeared, and when she went away they returned; and I have seen Americans kept off the shore beyond three miles, and they could not catch a mackerel, and our vessels caught hundreds of barrels.

8. The inshore fishery is worth double of the whole fishery, and more than double.

9. The Americans made a practice of lee-bowing us, and I have often seen them running into Nova Scotian vessels; and I have myself been driven off the grounds by American vessels, and away from schools of mackerel.

10. Over twelve years ago, I have seen American vessels in the North Bay with purse-seines, and I consider these seines injurious to the fishery. I have never seen a Canadian vessel with a purse-seine.

11. The Americans catch bait all around our coast, as much as they can get.

12. During the past six years there has been no increase in the quantity of fish in Canadian waters. This, I think, is owing to over-fishing, purse-seining, trawling, and throwing gurry overboard, and other improper methods of taking fish.

13. The herring fishery is all inshore, and the Americans fish and buy them for bait; they buy because they find it saves time and expense.