4. From the time that I arrived here until 1868, the time that the Americans were permitted to fish inshore, I saw large numbers of American mackerelers along the shores, and also halibut fishers; and I have counted often as many as 30 at one time at Seven Islands Bay. They come there for shelter, and for fishing also. When they were prevented from fishing by the coast-guard schooners, after the end of the treaty, we saw but few, though they still continued to come in small numbers in spite of the coast guards. Since the Treaty of Washington I have only seen a few fishing for mackerel and halibut. I estimate the aver age annual number of mackerel and halibut schooners belonging to the Americans, from Seven Islands to Gadbout, to have been 100. These vessels were all fishing and seining close along the shore within the threemile limit. They fished inside the limit, because there was no fish outside of the limit. They nearly all loaded. I fished for them, and with them for several seasons, both with the hook and with the seine. This enables me to give accurate information with regard to the fisheries of the Americans on this coast; each of these vessels took from 300 to 800 barrels. About ten of these vessels fished annually for halibut.

5. There was generally one seine for each three schooners, some seines were shore seines, and some were bay seines; even with the bay seines they never fished outside of British waters. Often they threw the seine after a school of fish, and when the seine was drawn near the shore, it was found that they had herring or young codfish, and not mackerel; and as they wanted no fish but mackerel, they would allow the greatest part to perish and rot upon the shore.

6. The halibut-fishing schooners fished along the coast, always within three miles. They stopped fishing in numbers about 7 or 8 years ago. Since that period we only saw a few; this year none. When I first

came here I could take as many halibut as I liked, and the people used to sell large quantities, and besides used it largely as food; but now, since the Americans have fished so extensively along the shore, we only catch a few. It is not now worth our while to fish for them. My opin. ion is that this scarcity, which is so injurious to the people of the coast, and to the interests of the fishermen of this county in general, is due entirely to destructive over-fishing done by the Americans, as I have stated above, by trawls, &c. Now that the fishing for halibut is at rest, the restocking is taking place, as we see more small ones this year; and if the Americans keep away for a certain number of years, this fishing will certainly recuperate, as our fishermen never fish in such an exhaustive manner as to destroy the fishery.

7. We find on this coast, from Point Charles to St. Nicholas, a distance of 120 miles, excellent spawning-grounds, especially at Seven Islands Bay, St. Margaret's Bay, May Islands, Cawee, Trinity Bay, Gadbout, &c. At all these places any quantity of herring can be taken in the spring.

8. The American fishing-grounds are of no use to us; we don't want to go there.

9. Our fish is prepared for the Canadian markets and Europe and Brazil.

10. The population is increasing so fast on this coast, and the fisheries are so needful for their subsistence, that they should not be given away to foreigners; if they are, half our population will have to emigrate. Most of these American vessels trade extensively with the shore popu lation, and sell and land articles without paying duties. The fisheries here are very accessible, as there are many harbors, good anchoragegrounds, and roadsteads.

11. The bait for cod-fishing and halibut and mackerel is very abundant along the shore, and the Americans used to go and get it themselves. I have seen them repeatedly go and dig clams at Seven Islands and the May Islands.

I hereby swear that the above statement is to the best of my knowledge and belief correct.

PIERRE BROCHU.

The said Pierre Brochu, of Seven Islands, has sworn to the truth of the above affidavit, at Moisie, in the county of Saguenay, and Province of Quebec, this sixth day of August, A. D. 1877, before me.

No. 239.

P. FORTIN, J. P.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, ISAAC CHOUINARD, farmer and fisherman of Cape Chat, in the county of Gaspé and Province of Quebec, make oath and say as fol lows:

1. I have been engaged in fishing on this coast for about twenty years. 2. I am well acquainted with the fisheries of the south coast of the St. Lawrence from Matane to Gaspé, of the north shore from Point des Monts to Esquimaux Point, north and west coast of Anticosti, Bay de Chaleur, and the Magdalen Islands. I was engaged as fisherman on board an American mackerel fisher for one season, the summer of 1863; we made two trips of 850 barrels each trip, both of which took place within ten weeks. The first trip we took 100 barrels with the seine; the rest were taken with hook and line. The second trip was made entirely with theseine, and we filled our vessel in five days; that is to say, the seine was hauled once, from the shore at Cape St. Nicholas on the north shore of the St. Lawrence, and contained no less than 1,200 barrels; the seine was moored, and 850 barrels were taken from the seine, and the seine was capsized and the remaining 350 barrels were allowed to go, we having no means of preserving them; many of these were dead and became a total loss. The first voyage was made partly on the coast of Gaspé and partly in the Bay of Chaleur; the fish we caught were taken entirely within the three-mile limit in both voyages-that is, entirely in British waters. We also made a third voyage in September and October on the banks off the Magdalen Islands, where we loaded with codfish and halibnt. The vessel was of 100 tons and hailed from Boston.

3. Mackerel was very abundant on this coast formerly; for the last few years they have been scarce; this year they are appearing in abun dance.

4. According to my belief, the scarcity was caused by the great quantity taken by the Americans, and as they have not been fishing in any numbers for a few years back, the quantity of mackerel is again increasing. The year that I fished with the Americans it was reckoned that seven or eight hundred American vessels were fishing in the Gulf of the St. Lawrence; as far as I could see and learn, they were all fishing within the three-mile limit.

5. I affirm that the presence of so many American vessels in our waters fishing for mackerel was most injurious to our mackerel fisheries, as it must tend to diminish the supply, the methods practiced by the Americans, either by seines or by hook and line, enabling them to take such large quantities so easily.

6. The privilege of fishing in American waters is of no value to us. I have no knowledge of any Canadian vessels being engaged in fishing in American waters.

7. The free market for our fish in the States is of no use to us, as our fish is prepared either for home consumption or for foreign markets other than the American, where they command better prices.

8. It is my opinion that it is of the greatest importance to us as Canadians to keep our fisheries entirely to ourselves as a means of developing our own fisheries, and fostering our mercantile marine, and giving employment to our maritime population, and thereby keeping them from emigrating to foreign countries.

I swear that the above statement is to the best of my knowledge and belief correct.

his

ISAAC+ CHOUINARD.

Witness:

W. WAKEHAM.

mark.

The said Isaac Chouinard has sworn to the truth of the above affidavit, at Cape Chat, in the county of Gaspé, this thirty-first day of July, A. D. 1877, before me.

P. FORTIN, J. P.

No. 240.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, AUSTEN LOCKE, of Lockeport, in the county of Shelburne, merchant, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been engaged in the buying and selling of fish for twenty years, in fishermen's supplies, and outfitting fishing-vessels, and am well acquainted with the inshore fisheries in Shelburne County.

2. From eight to ten American fishing vessels run into this port within the two or three years now past. They purchased ice and bait and supplies to a small extent. They are fitted out at home with supplies and only purchase when they run short, which is a great accommodation to them. The American vessels which run in here sell their small fish, which would be an inconvenience for them to carry home; by doing this they take home a cargo of large and valuable fish. The American vessels which come in here and take ice and bait, trawl for codfish off this coast within twelve or fifteen miles. In my opinion trawling is an injurious method of taking fish, as it destroys the spawn fish. Out of this port there are about one hundred vessels engaged in the fisheries-mostly codfish-all fitted out here. The most of these vessels take codfish by hand-lining. The American vessels which fish off this coast take, during the year, about one thousand quintals of codfish each, and could not catch this fish unless they got bait and ice in our harbors to enable them to do so.

3. In the falls of seventy-one, two, and three, I had a vessel running to the North Bay for mackerel, and in seventy-one she made a good trip. She took three hundred and forty barrels of mackerel. She carried fifteen men. From seventy-one back to sixty-three I had vessels engaged in the mackerel fishery, and in my experience this fishery has varied, being some years good and others poor. Since seventy-three

the codfish have fallen off to some extent; this I attribute to trawling, as already stated.

4. The fishing-grounds are injured by throwing overboard offal, and so many American vessels throwing over this offal are very injurious to the grounds.

5. The inshore fishery is of greater value than the off-shore fishery, and twice the value of the off-shore fishery.

6. Canadian fishermen catch codfish in inshore waters along the coast. 7. Since eighteen hundred and seventy-one the number of American vessels engaged in taking codfish has very largely increased-there are more than five times as many.

8. Last year from four to five thousand barrels of herring were taken in the county of Shelburne; these fish are taken all inshore, within three miles of the shore.

9. In proportion to the whole number of mackerel taken in American waters they do not get so many number one as there are taken in Canadian waters.

10. It is a great advantage to American fishermen to be able to procure bait and ice in which to preserve it in the bay and harbors along the Canadian coast, and without this bait and ice they could not suc. cessfully carry on the fishery on the banks off this coast. They purchase this bait in this county, and do so because they save time and expense by so doing. It would require too much time to catch this bait to any large extent inshore in this county. The privilege of getting bait inshore in Canadian waters interferes with the supply for Canadian bankers, as they make the bait scarce, especially in the early part of the season.

11. I have never known nor heard of any Canadian vessels except two from this county fishing in American waters. One of these vessels I myself owned. She went from here to get seines at Gloucester, and only caught two barrels of mackerel on the American coast. She reported that she did not see a school of mackerel on the American coast. This vessel was in American waters during the month of July now past. 12. The privilege of getting bait in Canadian ports is worth six hundred dollars to each American vessel.

13. So many American vessels running down here to fish make the fish much more scarce for Canadian fishermen. They first employed trawling, and compelled Canadian fishermen to do so in order to compete successfully with them. By trawling the expense in catching is double. Nova Scotia vessels out of this port have commenced trawling within the last three years.

14. I have known of cases of smuggling by American vessels in this county, particularly kerosene-oil.

AUSTEN LOCKE.

Sworn to at Lockeport, in the county of Shelburne, this 23d day of August, A. D. 1877, before me.

JACOB LOCKE,

Justice Peace.

No. 241.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, DANIEL MCADAMS, of Lockeport, in the county of Shelburne, master mariner, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been engaged in the fisheries for the past twenty-four years.

I have taken codfish in the North Bay, along the southern coast of Nova Scotia, on the Laborador coast, and on the Banks. Along the southern coast of Nova Scotia, in the North Bay, and on the Labrador coast I have taken herring.

2. I left the North Bay a fortnight ago and saw a large number of American mackerel-vessels there and likewise round Prince Edward Island. I saw as many as thirty sail in one day. Last summer I also saw a large number of American vessels engaged in taking mackerel. Last year and this year I have seen many American vessels engaged in taking codfish in the North Bay. These American mackerel-vessels carry from fifteen to twenty men each. The American vessels which I saw had on board about three hundred barrels of mackerel each. The Americans take this mackerel inshore within three miles of the shore. 3. In the North Bay the American codfish-vessels carry from twelve to sixteen men each, and are fitted out to take from a thousand to fourteen hundred quintals of fish to each vessel.

4. The Americans catch almost all their codfish by trawling. Both last year and this I saw American vessels trawling for codfish around the Magdalen Islands within three miles of the shore. This year I have seen as many as seven American schooners trawling inshore within three miles of the shore for codfish. An American schooner which lay alongside of our schooner took inshore, within three miles of the shore, from ten hundred to twelve hundred quintals; she took as many as one hundred and fifty quintals in one day. The American vessels fished to a large extent inshore this year, as the fish were more plentiful this year within three miles of the shore than off. Four years ago I have seen the Americans set their trawls inshore around Scaterie. Since 1871 the Americans fished inshore whenever the fish made in.

5. In the North Bay last summer I have counted in sight from forty to forty-five vessels at one time, most of whom were Americans. This number I have counted day after day. Nearly all the American vessels, as already stated, take codfish by trawling. Most of the Canadian vessels hand-line. Trawling I consider an injurious method of taking fish, as it destroys the mother fish. In hand-lining very few mother fish are taken. In trawling the bait lies dead upon the bottom, and the mother fish which are on the bottom bite at it. In hand-lining the bait is almost continuously on the move.

6. On the Canadian coast of Labrador four years ago and for ten years previous, every year I have seen American vessels engaged in seining codfish on the shore. This I consider a bad method of taking fish, as it destroys all kinds of fish, and the large and very small codfish are taken. I have never seen any Canadian vessel seining codfish. The American schooners on the Labrador coast carry about twenty hands each, and are fitted for from two thousand to two thousand two hundred quintals, and generally take eighteen hundred quintals each.

7. I have seen many of the American vessels around the Magdalenes fishing herring and mackerel for bait within the last six years. These herring and mackerel the Americans take in nets. Nearly all the American vessels engaged in cod fishing in the North Bay catch their own bait inshore within three miles.

8. I have known American vessels on the Labrador coast to take a thousand barrels of herring by seining cn the shore.

9. The mackerel fishery. to my knowledge has always varied. In seventy-one, two, and three, there were good catches. The herring fishery is almost always good. The cod fishery in the North Bay and on the banks during the past five or six years has fallen off to a large extent,