12. The privilege of transshipping cargoes on our coasts is of great value to the American mackerelers. It enables them to make a greater number of trips and catch more fish than they otherwise could; and by this means they save about three weeks on each trip they make. I have known an American mackereler to catch a fare of fish in the time that another vessel was going to the United States and returning.

I consider it a very great privilege to the American codfishermen to be allowed to procure bait on our shores, either by purchase or by catching it themselves. They consider it more profitable to buy bait than to spend time in catching it; for this reason, that their ice would melt and their bait already obtained would turn sour while they were fishing for more. They, therefore, obtain almost all their bait by purchase from our fishermen. The Americans cannot profitably carry on the deep-sea fishery without obtaining bait on the shores of the Dominion or Newfoundland. Indeed, I do not see how they can carry on the deepsea fishery at all without obtaining bait in Canadian or Newfoundland harbors or shores.

13. The privilege of fishing in American waters is of no practical advantage whatever to Canadians.

14. The value of procuring bait on our shores is worth to American codfishermen almost the whole value of their trip, as without getting the bait they could not catch the fish at all. And in the winter and summer seasons the Americans cannot procure bait except in Canada or Newfoundland.

15. The Canadian inshore boat fishery is injured to a great extent by the American vessels carrying on their fishing operations within the three-mile limit, especially by seining and throwing of bait.

DAVID MURRAY, JR.

The said David Murray, junior, was sworn to the truth of this affidavit at Port Mulgrave, in the county of Guysborough, this 30th day of July, A. D. 1877, before me.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, THOMAS CONDON, of Guysboro', in the county of Guysboro', mer chant, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been in engaged in the fisheries for five-and-twenty years, both for myself and others, in the county of Guysboro' and other parts of the eastern coast of Nova Scotia. During that time I have been actively engaged in the business, and have a general and fair knowledge of the business of fishing as carried on by both the Canadians and Americans.

2. I have known as many as seven hundred American vessels fishing on our coast during one season for mackerel alone. Some years there would not be so many. Their average tonnage would be from sixty to one hundred per vessel. The crews would average fifteen. When the fishing was good and they enjoyed the privileges now enjoyed under the Treaty of Washington, each American vessel would catch on an average one thousand barrels. This average I consider none too large. When they fished on our coast they used to land and refit. This enabled them to catch double the quantity of fish.

3. Whenever the Americans could they fished inshore. This they did during the Reciprocity Treaty and at other times when they could evade the law. This they also do since 1871. When restricted from our inshore fisheries their voyages were broken up and their vessels were ordered home. This I learned from dozens of the American masters themselves, while I did business at Port Mulgrave for W. O. Heffernan. 4. The value of the inshore fisheries are immensely more valuable to the people of Eastern Nova Scotia than those outside. Very few fish are caught by our people outside.

5. Where the practice of enticing fish off shore has or is being carried on, it is very injurious in drawing the fish beyond the reach of many of our own people.

6. All kinds of fish taken in our waters are caught inshore by our fishermen. Whenever there are a large number of fishing vessels in the North Bay there is less fall mackerel taken, which is and has been one of our most important inshore fisheries. The reason for this I believe to be that the excessive quantity of bait used in the bay keeps them from our shores so late that our fishermen cannot take them. Besides, when the Americans frequent our harbors and bays it injures our inshore fisheries and destroys the fishing gear and nets of our fishermen.

7. I consider the privileges granted to the Americans by the Washington Treaty of immense value to them, and the withdrawal of them would completely cripple their fishing operations. By enjoying these privileges they are enabled to double their trips and more than double their catches. Indeed, without such privileges I think it would be impossible for them to prosecute the fisheries. They catch and buy their bait. When they buy it, it is to serve their own interests, not ours. The right to land, catch, and buy bait inshore is indispensably necessary to them for the prosecution of their fisheries.

8. I am not aware of any Canadian vessels fishing in the American waters. The privilege to us I consider of little or no value.

THOMAS CONDON. Sworn to at Guysborough, in the county of Guysborough, this 26th day of July, A. D. 1877, before me.

JAMES A. TORY, J. P. For the County of Guysborough.

No. 249.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, ALEXANDER MCKENZIE, of Crow Harbor, in the county of Guysboro', fisherman, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been engaged in the fisheries during the last thirty years, in and about the northern coast of Nova Scotia, catching all kinds of fish caught along the Nova Scotian coast.

2. Crow Harbor is situated in Chedabucto Bay. Since 1871 American fishermen come into the harbor for bait and ice, to an average of fifty each year. They fish the greater part of their bait, but some they buy. The quantity of squid alone caught by them in this harbor since A. D. 1871 will average twelve hundred dollars annually, at least. They take quantities to the Banks for sale. Besides squid, they also buy herring and mackerel for bait. The American vessels come in twice and sometimes three times after bait.

3. When the American vessels are in fishing bait few fish can be caught. The principal fishing carried on in Crow Harbor is seine and net fishing. The American vessels are anchored on the seine grounds; their boats are all around the harbor and coast; the catching of bait and the noise made by them by firing guns, and in other noises made by them, break up the schools of mackerel, so that they are frightened off, and prevent them from coming in so that the fishermen can catch them. Neither can our fishermen set their nets when American vessels are coming in and out, or when they are at anchor, because the anchors and ships tear and destroy them. For these and many other reasons it has been very injurious to our fisheries to have the Americans come in for bait. In fact our fishing in this harbor is almost destroyed. Formerly the mackerel fishing in this harbor was one of the best in Canada.

4. The value of our inshore fisheries is immeasurably greater to us than those outshore. The whole fisheries of this bay are inshore.

5. Since 1871, wherever the Americans have resorted for bait the fishing has decreased. This is particularly the case in this harbor. The failure of the fishing in this harbor during the last few years, I attribute largely to the presence of the American fishermen in our har bor.

6. Mackerel feed upon shrimp and other small fish. This food is found along our shores where the mackerel feed. I think a portion of the mackerel spawn or breed along the coast of Nova Scotia, but the greater number spawn on the Bank and other shoal waters of the North Bay.

7. I consider it a great advantage to the Americans to be allowed to land and dry their fish and transship their cargoes. In this way they are enabled to catch a much larger quantity of fish, and, in fact, without the advantages granted by the Treaty of Washington I cannot see how they could carry on the deep-sea fisheries with profit. It will at least enable them to double the quantities they would otherwise catch.

ALEXANDER MCKENZIE.

Sworn to at Crow Harbor, in the county of Guysboro', this 26th day of July, A. D. 1877, before me.

WM. S. MCKENZIE,

J. P. for the County of Guysborough.

No. 250.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, MICHAEL ROBERTSON, of Port Jollie, in the county of Queen's, fisherman, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been engaged in fishing for upwards of thirty years. I have fished along the southern coast of Nova Scotia, around Cape Breton, on the eastern side of New Brunswick, around Prince Edward's Island, around the Magdalenes, and on the Labrador coast, both on the Canadian and Newfoundland coast. I am well acquainted with the inshore fisheries in Queen's County.

2. When fishing in the North Bay I have often seen from two to three hundred American vessels engaged in fishing at one time. These vessels were engaged in taking mackerel, and took the most of them inshore within three miles of the shore, and it would not pay to send a vessel to the North Bay unless she could catch mackerel within three miles of the

coast. I was in the North Bay when the fisheries were protected by cutters, and saw the Americans kept off beyond three miles, and they took scarcely any mackerel while our vessels within three miles of the shore were doing well.

3. In this harbor large quantities of clams are got for bait. About firty sail of vessels are supplied every year with this bait. These vessels take from twenty-five to thirty barrels each. These vessels thus supplied are Canadian. They say the clams got here are just as good as the American. These vessels use these clams for bait in taking mackerel and codfish. The codfish taken by clam bait is with hook and line.

MICHAEL ROBERTSON.

Sworn to before me this 17th day of August, 1877.

PORT JOLLIE, 1877.

S. T. N. SELLON, J. P.

No. 251.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, GEOFFREY W. PUBLICOVER, of Getson's Cove, in the county of Lunenburg, master mariner, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been engaged in the fisheries for twelve years down to the fall of 1873 inclusive. I fished along the southern coast of Nova Scotia, around Cape Breton, on the eastern side of New Brunswick, around Prince Edward's Island, around the Magdalenes, on the Canadian coast of Labrador, and am well acquainted with the inshore fisheries in Lunenburg County. I have taken all the kinds of fish found on the abovementioned coasts.

2. I have seen in Port Hood Harbor at one time four hundred sail of mackerel vessels, of which upwards of three hundred were Americans. I have seen in the fall of 1873 one hundred and eighteen vessels engaged in taking mackerel, of whom one hundred at least were American vessels. These vessels were all in sight. There were many which we did not see. I have often made calculations with Nova Scotia and American skippers, and during the falls of 1871, 1872, and 1873, we put the American vessels engaged in taking mackerel at over four hundred sail on an average for the three years. These vessels take the most of their mackerel inshore, and in my opinion it would not pay to fish mackerel in the North Bay unless they can be taken inshore.

3. These American mackerel men carry from fifteen to twenty-two hands. These vessels take from two to six hundred barrels on each trip, and make from three to four trips. In the falls of seventy one and two many of them made four trips and took as many as two thousand barrels of mackerel in the year.

4. I have seen many American vessels engaged in taking codfish in the North Bay. These vessels carry about twelve men each and take from about ten to twelve hundred quintals of codfish during the season. These vessels take fish inshore within three miles of the shore, and I have seen them take codfish by trawling close into the shore at Scaterie. They take fish wherever they can get them.

5. I have frequently seen the Americans take herring around the Magdalenes. These vessels carry about from eight to ten hands, and take from one thousand to two thousand barrels each. I have seen the Americans take herring and codfish on the Canadian coast of Labrador.

These fish they take by seining on the shore. These vessels take about two thousand barrels of herring each. The codfish vessels take about two thousand quintals each.

6. Mackerel, in my experience, have varied; in the falls of seventyone and seventy-two the catch of mackerel was more plentiful than I have ever seen it for over ten years. In the fall of seventy-three my vessel, with a crew of sixteen hands, took in a few weeks two hundred barrels of mackerel. Codfish, in my experience, has remained about the same. The herring fishery has always been good.

7. The Americans formerly took mackerel with hook and line during a few of the last years I was there. I saw the Americans use purseseins. These purse seins I consider very bad for the fishery. They take both large and small mackerel; they break up the schools of mackerel and frighten them away. I have never seen nor heard of any Candaian vessel using a purse-seine. I am acquainted with over two hundred Nova Scotian vessels. The Americans take codfish in the bay mostly all by trawling. Many of the Canadian vessels take codfish with hand lines.

8. In my experience the Americans fished inshore whenever they could, whatever the terms of the treaty were. I have seen two American vessels taken by the cutter Sweepstake in one day.

9. I think it would be a great benefit to Canadian fishermen if the Americans were excluded from our inshore waters, and I know of no benefit that we derive from American fishermen whatever.

GEOFFREY W. PUBLICOVER.

Sworn to at Getson's Cove, in the county of Lunenburg, this 10th day of August, A. D. 1877, before me.

JOSEPH W. LOCKHART.

No. 252.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, JAMES S. SEABOYER, of Rose Bay, in the county of Lunenburg, merchant, make oath and say as follows:

1. I was engaged in the fisheries for twelve years, down as late as 1869. I fished along the southern coast of Nova Scotia, around Cape Breton, the eastern side of New Brunswick, around Prince Edward's Island, around the Magdalenes, and on the Labrador. I took principally mackerel, and I have fished also codfish. I have fished for one season in an American vessel, Charles P. Thompson, of Glouces ter. We took all mackerel, and took them mostly all inshore within three miles of the shore; and in my opinion it would not pay to go to the North Bay to catch mackerel unless they can fish inshore; nor do I think it would pay to fit out a vessel for the North Bay if she had to fish outside of the three-mile limits. The American vessel that I was in was from the latter part of August till the latter part of October in the North Bay, and took in that time three hundred barrels of mackerel. The men's share averaged about one hundred dollars apiece. The Americans get bait around here at Moser's Island, and have got it in considerable quantities during the past six years.

2. When I was in the bay, the bulk of the Americans transshipped their cargoes at Canso, and by doing this they save time, expense, and take more fish.

JAS. S. SEABOYER.