Sworn to at Rose Bay, in the county of Lunenburg, this 8th day of August, A. D. 1877, before me. JAS. H. WENTZEL, J. P.

No. 253.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, THOMAS RITCEY, Sr., of Lower La Have, in the county of Lunenburg, fisherman, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been engaged in the fisheries for thirty-three years, and have a vessel now engaged in the fisheries. I have fished along the southern coast of Nova Scotia, around Cape Breton, Prince Edward Island, the eastern side of New Brunswick, and around the Magdalen Islands and Lower St. Lawrence. I have fished mackerel, herring, and codfish, and all the fish taken in Canadian waters.

2. I have seen in one day, in the North Bay, upwards of one hundred and fifty sail engaged in taking mackerel. All those vessels were American. We often made calculations among ourselves, and put the American vessels down at between five and six hundred in the North Bay. The American vessels carried from fifteen to twenty-five hands. The Americans fished in close to the shore, and took mackerel wherever they could get the most of the mackerel. The Americans got inshore. Very seldom they got much mackerel three miles from the shore. In my opinion it would not pay the Americans to go to the North Bay to fish mackerel unless they could fish within three miles of the shore. I have seen the Americans trawl inshore within three miles for codfish around Prince Edward Island.

3. The American vessels averaged about four hundred or upwards barrels to each vessel on each trip. They average two trips. The codfishvessels carry from twelve to eighteen men, make two trips, and take from eight to twelve hundred quintals to each vessel on each trip:

4. In my experience mackerel has always varied, being some years good and others poor. Overfishing during the past few years may have something to do with the falling off in mackerel. This year mackerel have struck in plenty. The cod-fishing during the past fifteen years has been good, and if bait is plenty, plenty of codfish can be had. The herring has always been plenty.

5. The Americans take mackerel mostly with hood and line. I have seen them seining them around North Cape, in Prince Edward Island, with purse seines. This plan of taking mackerel with purse-seines is injurious to the fisheries. I never saw any Canadian vessels using purseseines. The Americans take codfish mostly by trawling inshore and off shore, and wherever they can catch them. Trawling, in my opinion, will be the ruination of the codfish, as by it the mother fish are taken. In trawling, the bait lies still upon the bottom; in hand-lining the bait is moving, and very few fish are taken. Upwards of twenty-five years ago I have seen Americans trawling. Nova Scotians never made a practice of trawling until the last four or five years, when they were compelled to do so in order to compete with the Americans.

6. The throwing overboard of offal I consider very injurious to the fishing grounds. I have seen the Americans throw overboard fish under a certain number of inches, which I also consider injurious to the grounds. By these practices the fish are glutted and driven away. The throwing overboard of the sound-bone I consider injurious, and I have often

caught fish with sound-bones in them in a consumptive state. This offal is also destructive to the spawn.

7. The Americans made but little difference under any treaty. They fished inshore when the cutters were out of sight, and made off when the cutters appeared. It was reported again and again that the Amercan vessels carried two registers.

8. The inshore fishery is double the value of the off shore fishery.

9. I have often been lee bowed by the Americans. I have often seen them running into Nova Scotia vessels, and I have had my own vessel injured by them. They used to throw overboard bait and take the fish away from us.

10. The Americans get bait and ice all along our coast in the bays and harbors, wherever they can get it quickest and cheapest. They get this bait in order to carry on the Bank fisheries, and without this bait and ice it would be impossible for the Americans to carry on successfully the Bank fishery.

11. Since 1871, the number of fish has not increased. This is owing, in my opinion, to overfishing and the improper methods employed by the Americans in taking fish.

12. The Americans, since 1871, have injured Canadian fishermen by taking large quantities of fish by trawling and other improper methods of taking fish.

13. The herring are chiefly taken inshore, and the Americans purchase them for bait in order to save time.

14. The mackerel feed inshore and make inshore to spawn, and I call them an inshore fish.

15. I have seen Americans land their fish and then go out on the fishing ground to take more. By so doing they save time and expense and take more fish, as a vessel can carry home more than she can fish with.

16. It would, in my opinion, be impossible for the Americans to carry on the deep-sea fishery around our coast unless they could procure bait and ice in which to pack it. They purchase bait in order to save time. 17. The Americans are mostly all fitted out on leaving home, and only purchase supplies, except ice and bait, when they run short.

18. I know of no benefit to Canadians in the right of fishing in American waters.

19. The Americans make bait scarce for our bankers, and carry away large quantities of fish from our men.

20. I have often heard of Americans smuggling goods around our coast, and exchanging them for fish.

21. If the Americans were excluded from our inshore waters, it would be a great benefit to Canadian fishermen.

THOMAS RITCEY.

Sworn to at Lower LaHave, in the county of Lunenburg, this 7th day of August, A. D. 1877, before me.

JAMES H. WENTZEL, J. P.

No. 254.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, WILLIAM D. SMITH, of Port Hood, in the county of Inverness, merchant, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been actively engaged in the fish business in the way of a supplying establishment for the past thirteen years. I am owner of the fishing establishment on Port Hood outer island, and furnish supplies to fishing vessels and take fish in payment, and have a pretty good opportunity of judging of the condition of the fishing business on this part of the coast.

2. During the period I have been engaged I have known as many as 200 American vessels in Port Hood Harbor at one time. Mackerel and codfish are the chief fish obtained by the Americans in the gulf, though they take small quantities of haddock, hake, and halibut.

3. The average cargo of American fishing-vessels is three hundred barrels per trip of mackerel and from 600 to 1,000 quintals of codfish, and they make on an average from two to three trips during the season. The American vessels begin to arrive at about the first of May to procure bait for that cod fishing. In July they arrive here for the mackerel fishing, and continue fishing in the gulf and on the coast for several months until November.

4. The catch of mackerel has somewhat decreased during the past two or three years, but there is no reason to believe that this has been due to any falling off in the number of mackerel frequenting our coasts and waters. I believe that our mackerel fisheries will be as productive during the next eight years, if properly cared for, as during any past time. 5. The American mode of fishing in our waters is very destructive to our cod fisheries. Their system of trawling is very injurious; meeting the fish and killing the mother fish early in the season before they have spawned. I believe this mode, if continued by the Americans, will do serious damage to our fishing grounds.

6. I am not sufficiently familiar with practical fishing to understand fully the injury done to our fishing grounds by the practice of the Americans of throwing overboard offal; but I have understood that the fish were glutted by it, and I attribute the falling off in the catch of mackerel during the past two years as due to this practice of throwing bait overboard, which has prevented the mackerel from biting as freely as before. Our own fishermen exercise greater care in disposing of the offal, and usually bring it on shore with them.

7. I cannot speak positively as to the relative quantity of fish caught by the Americans at the time of the Reciprocity Treaty iushore and outside; but I know that the Americans fished there inshore, and I know that the inshore fisheries are much more valuable than those outside.

8. The Americans have injured our boat-fishing by their system of throwing bait overboard to entice mackerel to leave the shores. This at one period was a source of great damage to our boat-fishing.

9. The effect of the use of purse seines by the Americans in any great numbers would be the destruction of the fishing grounds and the glutting of the markets. The fish would be caught in such large quantities that many of them would be lost and thrown into the sea dead, which would be very destructive to the grounds.

10. The Americans, I understand, do catch small quantities of herring and squid for bait inshore, but chiefly purchase their bait from traders. The small fish used for bait is taken almost exclusively inshore and in bays and creeks.

11. Since the Treaty of Washington, to the best of my knowledge there has been a slight decrease in the number of codfish frequenting the gulf, and I attribute the cause of it entirely to the system of trawling adopted by the American fishermen.

12. The herring fishery on our coast is a very large industry, and very

important to our fishermen. Herring are caught altogether inshore. The Americans do not prosecute herring fishery to any great extent now, but should they do so at any time, as under the Treaty of Washington they may, they would very greatly injure the grounds, and their competition would be a great loss and injury to our fishermen, who are now profitably engaged in the business.

13. The mackerel spawn near the shore, and must necessarily feed near the shore, as the small fish upon which they feed only frequent shoal water.

14. It is unquestionably a very great advantage to American fishermen to be allowed to land and dry their nets and cure their fish. And a'still greater advantage to be permitted to transship cargoes, because it enables them to land their fish and refit for another voyage at our ports, without returning to the States, and greatly saves time during the season. It also affords a reasonable likelihood of building up a profitable trade for the Americans by preserving the fish in ice and transshipping them fresh to the American markets.

15. It is one of the greatest advantages which the Americans gain under the Treaty of Washington to procure bait in our waters and ports. Most of this is purchased from our traders; but the Americans only adopt this mode of obtaining it, because it is more profitable to them than catching it. Our own fishermen procure it with much greater facility than the Americans can, and it would be a serious drawback for them to have to catch it now, and would involve extra time and extra outfit.

16. It would be nearly, if not quite, impossible for the American fishermen to carry on cod fishing and other deep-sea fisheries around our coast if deprived of the privilege of resorting to our ports for bait. Their bait will only last three weeks on ice, and to be entirely dependent on their own ports for this would be destructive of all profits in the business.

17. Another great advantage to Americans under the treaty is the privilege of resorting to our ports for ice, which they obtain from our traders every season.

18. The cash value of the privileges accorded to American fishermen in respect of our fishing grounds can be measured by the value of our fisheries to them; for if they were deprived of them, their cod fishing would be ruined, and their mackerel fisheries in the gulf at least be greatly crippled.

19. I know of no advantage which Canadian fishermen derive from the privilege of fishing in American waters, and I never heard of any Canadian vessel going to fish in these waters, save that I read an account this spring in an American paper of one vessel that had been fitted out at Lunenburg for that purpose.

20. I do not consider the privilege of sending our fish into American markets free of duty anything like an equivalent for the use of our fishing grounds. In fact, it is only a trifling advantage to us anyway. WILLIAM D. SMITH.

Sworn to at Port Hood, in the county of Inverness, this 20th day of July, A. D. 1877, before me.

JOHN MCKAY, J. P.

No. 255.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, ARCHIBALD B. SKINNER, of Port Hastings, in the county of Inverness, trader and inspector of fish, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been engaged in the fishing business for the past thirty-two years. I have been a practical fisherman and am familiar with the general character of the fishing business on this coast.

2. During the Reciprocity Treaty a large fleet of American fishing vessels came to this coast during the summer season to carry on a fishing business. The number increased during the treaty, until at the termination a fleet numbering hundreds of vessels were engaged in fishing around the coast of Nova Scotia, Cape Breton, Prince Edward Island, and the Magdalen Islands. These principally took mackerel and codfish, but they took other fish as well. The average cargo of mackerel was at least three hundred barrels per trip, and the cargo of codfish ranged, to the best of my knowledge, from six hundred to a thousand quintals. They made two or three trips per season.

3. After the Reciprocity Treaty the American fleet began to fall off very much, and their business and profits began to decline, and I believe it would have gone down much more, and possibly have been abandoned, if American fishermen had not violated the law.

4. During the past two or three years the mackerel fishery in the Gulf of St. Lawrence has fallen off considerably. The number of American vessels has been decreased and the catch diminished. This has been merely accidental and temporary, and not permanent. The reason for few American vessels coming here I attribute to the falling off in the price of mackerel in American markets; and also to the injury done to our fishing grounds by American fishermen, by their system of seining and their throwing bait and offal overboard, which gluts the fish and tends to destroy the catch.

5. Our herring fisheries are among the most valuable and important we have, and are the source of great profit to our own fishermen. Nearly the whole herring fishery is carried on inshore.

6. The inshore fisheries are considered more valuable than the outside. During the prosperous years of our mackerel fishing I have no doubt but that the larger number were taken inshore. I believe that our mackerel fisheries, if properly protected, will be more productive and valuable this year, and for the next eight years, than for some time past. The number of American vessels arriving here this season and passing through the strait is larger than it has been for some time past, and the mackerel season is only beginning. I know no reason why there should not be as large a mackerel fishery in these waters during the remaining term of the Treaty of Washington as under the Reciprocity Treaty.

7. The privileges granted to American fishermen under the Treaty of Washington, of catching and procuring bait in our waters and ports, is exceedingly valuable to them. In fact, without that privilege, I cannot see how they could carry on their cod fishing in these parts with profit. All their bait is procured here and preserved in ice obtained from our traders, and I do not have much hesitation in saying that if the Americans were entirely dependent on themselves for bait they would have to abandon cod fishing on the British-American coast.

8. The privilege of reshipment of cargoes which the Americans obtain under the Treaty of Washington is exceedingly valuable to them. They