No. 261.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, JOHN DANIEL RICHARD, of La Have Island, at present of Getson's Cove, in the county of Lunenburg, fisherman, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been fishing for about forty five years. I have fished around Cape Breton, on the eastern side of New Brunswick, around Prince Edward's Island, around the Magdalenes, on the Canadian coast of the Labrador, and on the southern coast of Nova Scotia. I have taken all the kinds of fish found on the above-mentioned coasts.

2. Six years ago on the Magdalene coast I saw four American vessels, each equipped with four trawls, and on each set of trawls were a thousand hooks. I asked the American skipper how many fish he had on his trawls. He said nine hundred, and of these nine hundred he only took seventy on board. The fish thrown overboard interfered with our fishing. These fish, to the best of my knowledge, were taken within three miles of the shore.

JOHN DANIEL RICHARD.

Sworn to at Getson's Cove, in the county of Lunenburg, this 9th day of August, A. D. 1877, before me.

BENJAMIN RYNARD, J. P.

No. 262.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, COLIN MCLEOD, of Brooklyn, in the county of Queen's, merchant, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have during the present year supplied American fishing vessels with ice, about twenty tons. I have supplied about twenty tons to Canadian vessels. The Americans say that if they could get plenty of bait and ice in this harbor it would be of great benefit to them. They say that if they can get plenty of bait they would be more likely to get larger fares.

COLIN MCLEOD. Sworn to at Brooklyn, in the county of Queen's, this 16th day of August, A. D. 1877, before me. S. T. N. SELLON, J. P.

No. 263.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, JAMES BUSHEN, of Port Mouton, in the county of Queen's, fisherman, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have fished for eighteen years, every season down to the present included, principally inshore, in Queen's County, and on the banks off this coast. I have also fished in an American schooner for two years on the Western Bank.

2. During the past six years from twenty to thirty American vessels run into this harbor for bait, and without this bait they could not carry on the cod fishery, and they only get this bait around the Canadian coast. If they cannot get it in one place they run to another. They buy this bait because it pays them better than to catch it, as it would take too much time to do so, and it would be too much expense. These American vessels take from about eighteen to twenty-five barrels of bait each.

3. The codfish vessels run here about every three weeks, and do so for about three times before they make a full fare. They make a trip in from six to nine weeks. These vessels take from seven to fifteen hundred quintals each when they make a full fare. They catch their fish from fifteen to twenty miles off this coast, and principally by trawling, which I consider a very injurious method of taking fish.

4. I have been fishing on the banks off the coast of Nova Scotia for eighteen years, and I have never seen so many American vessels fisbing on these said banks as I have seen during the present summer.

JAMES BUSHEN. Sworn to at Port Mouton, in the county of Queen's, this 17th day of August, A. D. 1877, before me. S. T. N. SELLON, J. P.

No. 264.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, JOHN P. GARDINER, of Cape Sable Island, in the county of Shelburne, fisherman, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been engaged in fishing for thirty-eight years; mostly in the inshore fisheries on the cape off here. We catch large quantities of codfish within three miles of the shore, and all the mackerel taken around here are within three miles of the shore and in large quantities. Last summer and this present summer I have seen American vessels trawling within three miles of the shore around here. The Americans get bait in this harbor, which is a great advantage to them, as it enables them to carry on the trawling on the Banks off shore. This trawling in my opinion is spoiling the grounds. JOHN P. GARDINER.

Sworn to at Cape Sable Island, in the county of Shelburne, this 27th day of August, A. D. 1877, before me.

D. G. DALEY, J. P.

No. 265.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, ALEXANDER GILLIES, of Port Hood, in the county of Inverness, justice of the peace, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have lived in this place and been familiar with the fishing business here for fifty years. I have fished some myself and have had good opportunities of observing and knowing the general character and condition of the fisheries in these parts during the past half century.

2. I recollect well that previous to the Reciprocity Treaty in 1854 the few American vessels that used to come and fish in these waters on the coast of Cape Breton, complained all the time of the disadvantage of not being able to fish inshore, and the men used to say that they could not carry on a profitable business without it. As soon as the Reciprocity Treaty came into operation the number of vessels from American ports increased at once, until there was soon a large fleet. I am safe in saying that I have seen over four hundred American fishing-vessels in Port Hood Harbor at one time during the Reciprocity Treaty.

3. After the Reciprocity Treaty terminated, there was at once a great falling in the American fishing fleet on these coasts, and their business was not nearly as lucrative and profitable, and I believe if they had not violated the law they would scarcely have been able to carry on fishing with profit at all.

4. The American fishermen catch all kinds of fish in our waters. The larger part they take is mackerel and codfish; but they also take herring, halibut, hake, and haddock. Their average cargo is about four hundred barrels of mackerel, and when they take codfish they do not average less than from six hundred to a thousand quintals each vessel. They will average three trips per season.

5. There has been something of a falling off in the mackerel catch in these parts during the past year or two; but I would not say that there had been any diminution in the number of mackerel in our waters. I regard the falling off as merely temporary, and I believe it will be as good mackerel-fishing here if the grounds are not injured by the American fishermen during the coming eight years as heretofore. I believe the falling off in the catch of late has been largely due to the mode in which Americans carry on the fishing.

6. The inshore fisheries are much more valuable than the outside, and more fish are caught within three miles of the shore than outside. More than half of all the fish which the Americans take from our waters are taken inshore.

7. American fishermen are doing great damage to our boat-fishing by coming up near our boats and throwing bait overboard to entice the fish away, and they leave at once, and thus seriously interfere with the profit of our own shore-fishermen.

8. Our herring-fisheries are the most important and valuable we have, and probably our fishermen derive more profit therefrom than from any other. All herring are caught inshore and nearly all taken within onehalf mile of the shore. If the American fishermen should go into the herring fishing along our shores they would be almost certain to ruin the grounds and would do great damage to our own fishermen.

9. It is undoubtedly a great advantage to American fishermen to be allowed to land and dry their nets and cure their fish. It is also greatly to their advantage to be able to transship cargoes, and it enables them to make more trips and take more fish each season.

10. It is also the greatest advantage to American fishermen to be allowed to catch bait and procure it by purchase on our shores. All bait is taken inshore, and upon the privilege of getting bait at our ports and in our waters the very existence of the American cod-fishing depends, for it would be utterly impossible for the Americans to carry on the cod fishery in these waters if they were compelled to get all their bait from American ports and waters. Bait for cod-fishing will only last three weeks on ice, and the ice used to preserve it is procured by the Americans from our own traders.

11. From a pretty careful estimate of the matter from its various

points, according to the best of my knowledge and experience, I would say that the privilege derived by the American fishermen from the use of our fishing-grounds and the privilege of getting bait, outfit, and supplies at our ports was worth at least half as much as the entire American fishing business on the coast of British North America every year. If all the privileges given by the Washington Treaty to American fishermen were taken away, they could only make fishing profitable here by violating the law.

12. I know of no advantage which Canadian fishermen derive from the use of American waters. Our own fishing grounds are well known to be more productive than the American. I have never heard of any Canadian vessel going to American waters for the purpose of taking fish.

13. The presence of American fishing-fleets on our shores is undoubtedly very injurious to our own fishermen, who would be able to take larger quantities of fish and carry on a better business if they enjoyed exclusive rights. They would also take better care of the grounds and preserve them better.

ALEXANDER GILLIES.

Sworn to at Port Hood, in the county of Inverness, this 21st day of July, A. D. 1877, before me. ALEXR. MCDONALD, J. P.

No. 266.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

I, HENRY HEMLOW, senior, of Liscomb, in the county of Guysboro, fisherman, make oath and say as follows:

I have been engaged in the fisheries during the last sixty years. 1. The principal fishing at Liscomb is cod and herring fishing. At times I have seen as many as forty or fifty American vessels going in and out at once. Each American vessel would catch, on an average, between six and seven hundred quintals per trip. They would make two trips each season, and afterwards fish on their own coast or on the coast of Newfoundland.

2. The cod-fishing has improved lately; so has the herring fishing, but they are not so good as formerly. The Americans do not fish for bait in Liscomb Harbor, and this, in my opinion, accounts for the better state of the Liscomb fishery. When the American fishermen used to come in, they threw the fish guts, heads, &c., overboard and destroyed the eggs or young fish. This practice also drove out the fish from the harbor.

3. I consider the value of the outshore fishery much less than the inshore. Cod and halibut are principally caught outside, while all other fish are principally caught inshore. Formerly the Americans caught mackerel with hook and line; now they are caught by them with seines and purse-nets. Fishing with seines and purse-nets is injurious to the fisheries.

4. Haddock, codfish, and other fish caught inshore are fished by the Americans in the inshore waters. Canadian fishermen use the inshore fishery to a large extent, and it is of the greatest value to them. Very few herring are caught outside.

5. The food of the mackerel is found inshore. The privilege of land

ing, drying their fish, &c., I consider of great importance, as is also the opportunity of transshipping. This enables them to make more trips in the season, and also enables them to watch the best chances to fish. Without the privileges granted by the Washington Treaty, I am of opinion that the American fishermen could not fish with any profit to themselves.

6. I never heard of any Canadian fishermen frequenting American waters, but the American fishermen interfere with the Canadian fishermen by disturbing their seines and in other ways injuring the fisheries. It would be much better for the Canadians to have the sole right of the inshore fisheries, and no right to sell fish free in the United States than the rights they enjoy under the Washington Treaty.

7. Since 1871 an American lobster factory has been opened in Liscomb, and the lobster fishery has largely decreased. The canned lobsters are principally sold in England.

his

HENRY + HEMLOW, SR.

mark.

Sworn to at Liscomb, in the county of Guysboro', this 19th day of July, A. D. 1877, before me, first baving been read and explained.

JAMES A. TORY,

J. P. for the County of Guysboro'.

No. 267.

In the matter of the Fisheries Commission at Halifax, under the Treaty of Washington.

1, WILLIAM WATTS, of Port Hood, in the county of Inverness, fisherman, make oath and say as follows:

1. I have been for eight years past engaged in fishing, and during two seasons I made trips in American fishing vessels, and made trips and caught fish in the gulf and on various parts of the coast of Nova Scotia, Cape Breton, and the Magdalen Islands, and have had pretty good opportunities of judging of the fishing business done on this coast.

2. I have seen since the Treaty of Washington as many as four or five hundred American fishing-vessels in the harbor of Port Hood, and I should say that the whole number engaged in fishing in the gulf and around the shore has been as high as six or seven hundred in a season. These vessels were engaged principally in catching codfish and herring, although they take small quantities of herring, hake, haddock, and halibut. The vessels rate from 50 to 80 tons and are manned by from twelve to twenty of a crew. They usually average about three trips during the season, and in the codfish season take from five to seven hundred quintals at a trip, worth from $4 to $5 per quintal. Their average cargo of mackerel would be about three hundred barrels, worth formerly about $15 per barrel.

3. I do not know as there has been any great increase or decrease in the cod fishing in these parts of late. It is about as good this season as usual. There has been something of a falling off in the catch of mackerel within the past year or two; but I don't think there has been any falling off in the numbers of the mackerel. They would not bite so well; that is all. I cannot tell why this should be, unless it is on account of the American fishermen using seines and throwing bait overboard and offal, which makes the mackerel less free to bite.