Jeffrey Cook, fisherman, Lunenburg, Nova Scotia : 2. While in the Bay of Chaleur, the summer before last, I saw many American vessels there engaged in fishing, and have also seen many of them there fishing since 1871. I have counted, the summer before last, fifty American vessels within three-fourths of a mile from each other. The most of the American vessels which I saw fished inshore around the above-mentioned coasts. I saw them take both codfish and mackerel inshore, within three miles of the shore. Mackerel are taken mostly all inshore, and I would not fit out a vessel to take mackerel unless she fished inshore. James F. White, merchant, Prince Edward Island: 13. The mackerel, in spring, come down the Nova Scotian shore, and then strike up the bay to the Magdalen Islands; from there some shoals move toward the bend of this island, and others toward Bay Chaleur, Gaspé, and round there. The Americans are well acquianted with this habit of the mackerel and follow them. They have very smart schooners and fol low the fish along the shore, taking their cue, to a great extent, from what they see our boats doing. John Champion, fisherman, Prince Edward Island: 13. On an average there are eight hundred American vessels engaged in the cod, hake, and mackerel fisheries in the bay, that is, including this island coast, the Magdalen Islands, the New Brunswick and Nova Scotian coasts. There have been as many as fifteen hundred sail in a season, according to their own accounts. I myself have seen three hundred sail of them in a day. Wm. Champion, fisherman, Prince Edward Island: Was one year in an American vessel, down eastward on this island, and about Port Hood, Antigonish, Cape George, and other places in that direction; the boats and also the schooners fish close inshore. We fished right up in the Bay Chaleur and round the other shores of the provinces. James B. Hadley, Port Mulgrave, notary public, merchant: The principal places where the Americans fish for mackerel in the summer months are all over the Gulf of St. Lawrence, off Pomquet Island, Port Hood, Prince Edward Island, in the Northumberland Straits, off Point Miscou, as far up as the Magdalen River, across to the Seven Islands, off and around Magdalen Islands; and in the fall from East Point and the Magdalen Islands, and Island Brion; thence to Cape St. Lawrence and Port Hood, and around the eastern shore of Cape Breton to Sydney Harbor. The trawling for codfish is done all around our shores from the first of May till fall. George McKenzie, master mariner, Prince Edward Island, was 40 years fishing: When the mackerel strike off for this island the American schooners never wait along the bight of this island, but press up toward the North Cape, and Miscou, and Mira, and generally along the west coast of New Brunswick and up as far as Seven Islands above Anticosti, as their experience has taught them that that is the quarter where the fish are to be found first. Later on, in August and September they come back into the bight of this island. Nearly all the fish caught during these times are caught near the shores of the British possessions, although there are some American vessels which fished entirely in deep water away from the land, but these are comparatively few. William H. Sweet, of Fall River, in the State of Massachusetts, United States of America, but now of Port Hood, fisherman: 1. I have been engaged in the fishing-vessels fitted out by the Americans for the past five years, and have been engaged during that time in fishing in all parts of the gulf, on the coast of Nova Scotia, Cape Breton, and Prince Edward Island, and on the shores of the Magdalen Island. 2. A large number of American vessels have been engaged in fishing in these waters for some years past, taking chiefly mackerel and codfish. James Archibald, fisherman, of Boston: 1. I have been engaged in the fishing business for 20 years past, and during seven years past I have been fishing in American vessels, in American and Canadian waters. I have been engaged in various kinds of fishing on the coasts of Nova Scotia, and Cape Breton, in the gulf and about the Magdalen Islands, and Prince Edward Island. I came into this port in an American fishing vessel, and have been engaged in fishing here during the present season. This last is corroborated by Richard Thomas, fisherman, of Booth Bay, Me. Michael Crispo, merchant, Harbor au Bouche, Nova Scotia : The mackerel are caught all around the shores of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. 2. During the years that I was employed in fishing, the number of American vessels fishing for mackerel and codfish in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and on the coast of Nova Scotia would, to the best of my knowledge, range from six hundred to seven hundred each year. The average number of men to each vessel would be about fifteen. Jacob Groser, fisherman, Lower LaHave, Nova Scotia: 2. Four years ago I was in the Bay of Chaleur, and for many years constantly before that time year after year. Five years ago I have seen in the Bay of Chaleur from two to three hundred American vessels in one fleet. The most of these vessels took mackerel and they took the most of their mackerel inshore, and very seldom caught much mackerel beyond three miles from the shore. Philip LeMontais, Arichat, agent of Robin & Co : The harbor of Cheticamp is much frequented by American fishing-vessels, and I have seen at one time along the shores between six hundred and eight hundred fishing-vessels, most of which were American. These vessels were fishing for mackerel along the shore of Cape Breton. John Ingraham, Yarmouth, Nova Scotia : 2. About six hundred American vessels, from all ports, are engaged in fishing in Canadian waters; the average number of men is about fourteen; this is within my knowledge the past fifteen years. They fish for mackerel, codfish, and halibut, from Bay de Chaleur to Cape Forchu. Page 110.-John Morien, of Port Medway, Nova Scotia, proves fishing for mackerel by American vessels at Cape Canso, within half a mile of the shore. Page 111.-John Smeltzer, of Lunenburg, testifies that he has seen American vessels fishing for mackerel in the back harbor of Lunenburg. Page 115.-Johu Bagnall, of Gabarus, Cape Breton, proves American fishing-vessels in Gabarus Bay, northeast side of Cape Breton. Page 118.-Ryan Murphy, of Port Hood, Cape Breton, swears that he bas known as many as 700 American vessels fishing in the gulf and the shores around Nova Scotia, Cape Breton, and the Magdalen Islands. Page 126.-H. Robertson, of Griffin's Cove, Gaspé, proves an extensive mackerel fishery by Americans at Griffin's Cove, and neighboring coves. Page 126.-Donald West, of Grand Creve, Gaspé, swears to over 100 American schooners in Gaspé Bay, yearly, for mackerel fishing. Page 127.-Michael McInnis, of Port Daniel, Bonaventure County, Quebec, testifies that the mackerel fishery by Americans has been carried on, on an extensive scale, on that shore. Pages 134 and 136.-John Legresly and John Legros, of Point St. Peter, Gaspé, prove a large number of American mackerelers in Gaspé Bay during and since the Reciprocity Treaty. Daniel Orange and Joshua Mourant, of Paspebiac, Gaspé, swear that they have annually seen a large fleet of American mackerelers in Bay of Chaleur. Page 138 to 190.-Forty-nine others, all of Gaspé, swear to the continual use by the United States fishermen of the fishing-grounds inshore of that region, and to the annual presence of a large fleet of American fishing vessels in the Bay of Chaleur and Gaspé Bay. The following persons also testify that the Americans fish on all the shores of Nova Scotia, eastern and northern shores of Cape Breton, Antigonish Bay, east coast of New Brunswick, and Bay Chaleur : Page of affidavits. 156. W. Wyse, Chatham, New Brunswick. 181. Gabriel Seaboyer, Lunenburg, Nova Scotia. 227. John A. McLeod, Kensington, Prince Edward Island. 239. Daniel McIntyre, Prince Edward Island. 217. John Merchant, Northumberland, New Brunswick. From end to end the British evidence shows that the United States fishermen carry on their operations within the British territorial waters. I beg here to introduce a few instances from the evidence of the United States witnesses who were produced to prove that the mackerel fishery was carried on in what is called by the United States counsel "the open sea." TIMOTHY A. DANIES, of Wellfleet, Mass., fisherman, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Foster: Question. How old are you?-Answer. Seventy years. Q. Were you engaged in mackere fishing during a good many years?—A. Yes. Q. How many years did you come to the gulf to fish mackerel ?-A. Seventeen years. Q. What year did you begin and what year end?-A. From 1846 to 1873, I believe, inclusive; one year out. Q. Were you in the same schooner all the time?-A. Yes. Q. What was the name of the vessel?-A. Pioneer. Q. What tonnage?-A. 62 tons. Q. New or old measurement?-A. Old measurement. Q. Were you captain all these years?-A. Yes. Q. Where did you do your principal fishing in those places; more than three miles from shore, or less?-A. More than three miles. * Q. If you were a young man and fisherman once more, and wanted to come to the gulf to catch mackerel, would you be prevented from doing it by the fact that you were forbidden to fish within three miles of the shore ?-A. I think so. By Mr. Weatherbe: Q. If you were forbidden to come within three miles of the shore, would you come at all-A. It would be under certain circumstances. If there were no fish with us and plenty there, perhaps I might; I cannot say as to that. Q. From your experience, if you had been restricted, during all these years you came to the bay, from coming to within three miles of the shore, you would not have come?-A. I think not. Stephen H. Martin, master-mariner and fisherman, of Gloucester, was called on behalf of the Government of the United States. Here are some extracts from pages 212 and 215 of the American evidence: By Mr. Dana: Q. But you did not fish within the three-mile limit?-A. No. Q. Can you not find out from reports of vessels and from your own observation where the fish are ?-A. Yes. Q. You keep your ears and eyes open all the time you are fishing ?-A. Yes. Q. It is not necessary, actually, to go in and try if you find vessels leaving a place without catching anything, to discover that this is the case ?-A. No. Q. And you have to judge as to the presence of fish, a good deal from the reports of others?-A. Yes. A great many men have a choice as to fishing grounds; this is the case everywhere, whether in cod, halibut, or mackerel fishing. Some fish one way and some another. Q. From your experience in the bay-a pretty long one-do you attach much importance to the right of fishing within three miles of the shore ?-A. Well, no, I do not think it is of any importance. It never was so to me. By Mr. Weatherbe : Q. You never fished so close to the shore as that?-A. Sometimes we did. We fished within five miles of Bird Rocks. Q. And within four miles of them ?-A. Well, yes. Q. But you did not generally run in so close?-A. We might have done so. I could not tell exactly how far off we fished. We used to catch our fish on different days in different places. Q. You were asked whether you would not have your ears open and your understanding to know where other people caught their fish, and your answer was that some people had their choice?-A. Yes, sir. Q. That is to say, that some people have their choice to fish in certain places and others in different places -A. Yes. Q. And that is the only answer you gave? I suppose that you did hear where others were fishing. Have you given a full answer?-A I have given a full answer. Q. You must have heard where others have fished?-A. Of course, if a man gets a full trip on Orphan Bank he will go there again. Q. He does not care where others have fished?-A. No. Q. Then it is possible that some fish altogether in one place and some altogether in another place?-A. Well, I don't know anything about that; I only know my own experience. Q. Then you can give no idea where fish are caught except your own actual experience? -A. Well, I know where people have said. Q. That is just what Mr. Dana asked you. I want to take the same ground that he did that your ears were opened and you understood. Your answer was simply that some had their choice?-A. If I spoke a vessel and he said there was a good prospect at Bradley I should go there. If he said there was good fishing on the Magdalens I should go there. Q. I thought that your answer was that some would have their choice; that no matter what they heard they would still go to the same places ?-A. I would go where I got good catches the year before. Q. Then you didn't hear of others fishing in other places?-A. I have heard of them fish ing at Bradley and Magdalens and up the gulf. Again: Q. Now, I don't want to trouble you with reading any opinions, but about what time was it ascertained that the mackerel fishing was inshore ?-A. I could not tell. Q. At the time you mentioned it was not known that it was an inshore fishery at all?— A. No, not to my knowledge. Q. It was after it was ascertained that it was an inshore fishery that you heard of a difficulty about the limit?-A. Yes. By Mr. Dana: Q. I wish to ask you with reference to the last question when you ascertained that the mackerel fishery was an inshore fishery?-A. I stated it was not in the year 1838. Q. Mr. Weatherbe asked you when you first ascertained that the mackerel fishery was an ipshore fishery, and whether this or that happened before you ascertained that it was an inshore fishery. Now, have you ever learned that it was an inshore fishery in distinction from an outshore fishery ?-A. No. Q. Well, what do you mean when you speak of "after you understood it was an inshore fishery." Do you mean mainly or largely inshore ?-A. No. We would hardly ever catch any inshore in the first part of the season. Some parts of the year they did take them in shore and off shore, too. Q. Taking them all through, where did you catch them?-A. Most of them are caught off shore. By Mr. Weatherbe : Q. I asked when it was that the difficulty first arose about the limit, and whether it was after it was considered an inshore fishery; that is, 39-A. I referred to the year '38. It was an inshore fishery when they tished there. When vessels didn't fish there, you could not call it an inshore fishery. The attempt of many witnesses to show that the fishing was all carried on outside of three miles, was amusing, to say the least. Isaac Burgess, of Belfast, Maine, fisherman, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined by Mr. Foster, This witness fished in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in the years 1868, 1869, 1872, and 1874, and, excepting on one day, all his fishing was outside of three miles. By Mr. Weatherbe : Q. You caught your mackerel four miles off?-A. Yes. Q. What proportion?-A. Half of them; I could not tell. Q. I suppose that would be the distance you would select as being good fishing?—A. Yes, sir. Q. That would be the best fishing you have?-A. Yes, sir. Q. I suppose most of the fishermen fished that distance?—A. Yes; they generally fished off there near four or five miles. Q. It is considered about the best fishing, four or five miles?-A. Yes; it is. Q. I suppose in some places the fish would go in three and a half miles -A. Yes; some fish do. Q. You would not mind coming in three and a half miles if you were four miles out; I suppose sometimes they would manage to get in three miles?—A. No vessel that I have ever been in. Q. I am not speaking of the vessels, but the fish; is there anything to stop them at four miles -A. No. Q. There is no obstruction of any kind; just as good water?-A. Yes; only a little shallower. Q. Just as good feed?-A. Yes. Q. Perhaps better feed ?-A. Well, most generally the gales drive them off, but they come back again. Q. I suppose when the wind is a little off shore the best feed would be inside, close in ?— Yes. Q. Closer inside than four miles?-A. I should say so. Q. They would then go in pretty close?-A. Yes. Q. You would then go in there and drift off?-A. Yes. Q. And the fleet would do that. We have evidence of that. The fleet would run in as close as they could get and then drift off?-A. Yes; that was the way they fished. Q. As close as they could get in -A. Not within four miles. Q. I was referring to a little closer. I wanted to come in a little closer if I could. I was throwing a little bait.-A. Well, probably there might have been some fellows got in handier. Q. Some would go in handier?-A Yes; some of the captains went in. Q. Let us make a compromise and say three miles and a half. You don't object to that, do you?-(No answer.) George Friend, of Gloucester, whose evidence is to be found on page 119 of the United States, was produced and examined by Mr. Foster. He had many years' experience of fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, having fished there every year from 1855 to 1860, and owned several fishing-schooners, two of which were seized, but afterward released. He gave evidence that the great body of his mackerel were caught more than three miles from the shore. He was cross examined, and at page 123 the following record appears: By Mr. Weatherbe: Q. Between 1868 and 1876 you had five vessels fishing?-A. Yes. Q. And you made three mackerel trips?-A. Yes. Q. And you lost money by them?-A. Yes. Q. Where did the vessels fish-outside of the three-mile limit?-A. I could not tell you. Q. You have no idea where they fished?-A. No. Q. You had three vessels fishing in the bay; you sent them there?-A. Yes. Q. They came home, and you lost money by the trips ?-A. Yes. Q. And you undertake to say that you do not know and never made any inquiry whether the vessels fished inshore or outside?-A. Yes. Q. You never made any inquiry about it ?—A. No. |