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A. According to the best of my judgment, I should say that about 20 in the 104 barrels I have are fit for number ones, and the rest for number

twos.

Q. And these are poor trash ?—A. They are of very poor quality.

Q. Did you not say that they were poor trash and good for nothing f-A. I say that they are not fit to eat.

Q. Who are the unfortunate people upon whom you expect_to_palm them off?-A. People who don't know anything about mackerel. There are plenty of such people in the world, to whom you can sell almost anything.

Q. Are not the inspectors sworn officers ?-A. Yes.

Q. And you expect these sworn inspectors to mark them No. 1 although they are such poor trash and not fit to eat?-A. Yes, sir; and they will be marked bay mackerel, not shore mackerel, and people will buy them with that understanding.

Q. Do they understand that No. 1 bay mackerel are fit for nothing?A. They are not nearly so good as shore mackerel; we have to sell the former for $3 or $4 less, and perhaps $5 or $6 less than the latter. I have sold them at $9 less than ours in the market.

Q. No. 1 bay mackerel is not equal to No. 1 American mackerel ?—A. No; but I have got $3 a barrel more for the former than the latter, when we fished in the bay 15 years ago.

Q. Why is that?—A. I could not tell you.

Q. There was a time when the bay mackerel were better than the American mackerel ?-A. Yes; they used to be better than our shore fish; they commanded a better price; but during the last 8 or 10 years it has been quite the reverse; but why this is so is more than I can tell

you.

Q. The American fisheries along the coast failed, until within the last year or two, very much?-A. I am not aware that this was the case. Q. I allude to the inshore fishery on the American coast?—A. I did not know that it had.

Q. You did not know it?-A. No.

Q. Will you swear that this was not the case?-A. I do not know that it was.

Q. And you never heard that it had failed?—A. No.

Q. You did not know it of your own personal experience, and you never heard that it had failed ?-A. No.

Q. And you have been a practical fisherman for 15 or 23 years?—A. Yes. That is my business.

Q. And during these 23 years you have no personal knowledge of the American fishery having failed on your coast, and you have never heard of such a thing?-A. I have known that mackerel were awful scarce, as they are in your bay this year, but I know that they were plentiful last year. They were more plentiful on our shore last year than I ever saw them to be in the Bay of St. Lawrence.

Q. Then you have not known, and you never even heard, of the American fishery on your own coasts failing at all?-A. Failing entirely?

Q. Practically failing, and not being worthy of pursuit ?-A. It has been more of a failure this year than I ever saw since I went fishing. Q. Do I understand you to say that during all these years, as far as you are aware, the American fishery on the American coast was about. as good as it was during the last two years, and better, of course, than it has been this year; and that you know of no difference in this re

lation ?—A. I know but little about it. I used to go to the Bay of St. Lawrence.

Q. Why did you come up here?-A. I pursued the fishery in the Bay of St. Lawrence, but between Newburyport and Cape Cod the fishermen pursued it along our own shores.

Q. Did you ever see vessels fishing along the American coast-A. I know that they used to do better there than we did here.

Q. Then why did you not stop and fish there?-A. Because I thought that they could do better there than we could. We had always been accustomed to come here, and we could not go anywhere else, as will be the case with any man when he has got into a habit.

Q. And you kept this losing business up; not to put it too strong, you continued this business in which you only made enough to pay for interest and wear and tear ?—A. I did not say that we lost by it.

Q. But you only made enough to pay interest and wear and tear on the vessel?-A. Yes; and the depreciation on the vessel, and when we did that we thought we had done well.

Q. And you passed vessels fishing on the American shore and doing better than you could?-A. We could not all get crews and go there and fish. They were brought up to that kind of fishing and they could get crews for it, but we could not.

Q. Why not?-A. We did not have enough men, and men were

scarce.

Q. Do they take a larger number of men on vessels fishing along the American coast than they do in the bay ?-A. No; they take just the same number.

Q. Why, then, were you prevented fishing on the American coast 1A. We could not get crews to stay there. The men had themselves no faith in the shore fisheries.

Q. This was fishing ten miles off shore-A. The men were brought up to fishing here, and they thought that they must come here and fish. Q. Were they not just as able to manage a vessel and fish as other men?-A. I do not know but what they were just as good fishermen, but they never fished there, and we could not get them to go on George's Bank, they had such a dread of it.

Q. I am not referring now to George's Bauk. How many miles is that from the shore ?-A. About 100 miles.

Q. I am speaking of the fisheries in which you have been engaged during the last two years, about 10 miles out from the shore ?-A. I call George's Bank our shore fisheries.

Q. Then do I understand, when you speak of having made $2,000 a year for the last six years, that you refer to George's Bank, which you call the shore fishery ?—A. We go there at certain times of the year. Q. Do I understand you so to include that Bank ?—A. I never did but little of that kind of fishing.

Q. Will you answer the question? Do you approve of that or not ?— A. I do not, in my case. I can leave it out in my case.

Q. Did you fish there during that time?-A. I was there twice dur ing that period.

Q. Did you get any fish there?-A. I obtained about 10 barrels. Q. The trip down there was a failure?-A. It was in my case. I just simply go across there from the south to try for a week or ten days with the other vessels.

Q. Then your experience of George's Bank during the last 8 or 10 years is that the fishing there has been a failure ?-A. The vessels that stop there and fish do first rate.

Q. And you did not stop there?-A. No; I expected to find fish on the eastern shore, where I went and fished.

Q. During these 8 years you only obtained 10 barrels of fish on George's Bank ?-A. Yes.

Q. And all the rest you secured on the American inshore fishing grounds-A. Yes.

Q. And you took them all about ten miles from the shore ?-A. I said I should judge that I took about three-quarters of what I caught outside of ten miles from the shore.

Q. How far outside of 10 miles --A. From 10 to 50 miles.

Q. And you took about three-quarters of your fish at that distance from the shore ?-A. Yes; I should think that these were taken outside of 10 miles from the shore.

Q. How far from the shore did you catch the other one-quarter ?—A. We cannot go very near the shore; our nets are 27 fathoms deep, and we must not go near it or we would touch bottom. We have to fish 7 or 8 miles from the land.

Q. As I understand you, then, instead of catching one-quarter of the fish inshore, not a single barrel of all those you have taken during the last eight years have been caught within three miles of your own coast? -A. In some places we can go within a mile of the shore and have plenty of water.

Q. You are upon oath, and you say that during these eight years you have not, on any one occasion, fished within three miles of your own coast-A. I have caught one-quarter of the fish from two or three miles out, according to my judgment. I do not know exactly how far it was from the shore. I never define it. I might have caught onequarter of my fish inside, perhaps, of three miles from the shore.

Q. Did you not tell me just now that you caught one-quarter of the fish within 7 or 8 miles of the shore and the other three-quarters from 10 to 50 miles out?-A. It might have been inside of the three miles that I got the quarter. We took them anywhere where our seine would not touch bottom.

Q. Did you not tell me just now that you took them between 7 or 8 or 10 miles of the shore ?-A. I did not mean to say so, but I might have done so. I did not intend to say so, if I did do it.

Q. Will you tell me what proportion of the three-quarters was taken between 8 and 10 miles of the shore, and what proportion between 8 miles from, and the shore?-A. I cannot tell you anything about it, save from my judgment. I tell you that we caught the mackerel anywhere where the net would not touch bottom.

Q. You stated that it would touch bottom anywhere along shore, did you not?-A. I did not say anywhere, but that we must have 27 fathoms of water for it.

Q. How far have you fished from the shore?-A. We have fished all around the ledges.

Q. But how far from the shore?-A. It was two miles from the shore. Q. Will you swear it was within two miles of the shore ?-A. Yes; plenty of mackerel are inshore, but we could not get at them.

Q. Will you swear that any portion of that one quarter was taken within three miles of the shore?-A. I do not know that I could swear to that.

Q. It then comes to this: You can swear that of the whole of that catch you caught three-quarters from 10 to 15 miles off the shore, and that as to the other quarter you cannot state that one single fish was taken within three miles of the shore?-A. I can.

Q. How many were so taken ?—A. I have caught 50 barrels off Cape May within half a mile of the land.

Q. When?-A. Well, the year before last.

Q. Was that the only time you did so?—A. I cannot say that I recol lect of more than that one instance.

Q. How many barrels did you catch that season?-A. 1,000.

Q. And out of these 1,000 barrels you caught 950 barrels from 10 to 50 miles off shore?—A. I did not say that. I say that they were taken where the net would not touch bottom. Some vessels carry a fathom net.

Q. Will you swear now that of these 1,000 barrels, one single barrel was taken within three miles of the shore?-A. I could not swear that I did. I do not know that I did, save in the one instance I have mentioned.

Q. Will you now undertake to say that the local fishery on the American coast was exceptionally good during the last 6 or 7 years?—A. I do not know that it has been extraordinarily good; but last season there was a large catch.

Q. Up to last season it was in an ordinary condition, as far as you are aware-A. Last season the catch on our coasts was very large.

Q. And this year none have been caught there?—A. This year there has been a small catch so far; but I cannot state what may yet be the case. A long time must elapse before the fishing winds up.

Q. Do you know how many barrels have been taken from 10 to 50 miles off your coast and up to the coast?-A. No. I could not tell you anything about it.

Q. Can you give any approximate to the number?-A. No. I could not come anywheres near it.

Q. Have you read the reports of this year's catch?―A. No.

Q. Do you read the papers at all?—A. I think I do when I get them, but I have not had many of them since I have been down here. Down in this country we do not get any papers.

Q. You have stated in answer to Mr. Trescot that so far from transshipment of cargoes on our shores being a privilege it is a delusion and a snare, and that you lost money by it ?-A. That was my experience. Q. Do you put that statement forward as the experience of your brother fishermen ?—A. Every man from our place will say the same thing.

Q. Do I understand you to say that it is the general experience of the American fishermen, so far as you are aware?-A. I say that it is the case with those who go from Newburyport, but I would not speak for places farther away. I do not know much about other ports. Glouces ter is a large place, but I know very little about it.

Q. Do you know whether the Gloucester people avail themselves of this privilege of transshipment?-A. I know that they ship very few mackerel, and not nearly so many so they used to do.

Q. When did they used to transship?-A. They did so at the same time I did.

Q. When did you do so?-A. 10, 12, or 15 years ago.

Q. Was this during the Reciprocity Treaty or afterward ?-A. It was both at that time and after the treaty was terminated, when we had licenses.

Q. Did you ever transship after the Reciprocity Treaty expired, and when you had no licenses?-A. I do not think that we could ship with out licenses.

Q. Did you ever do so after the expiration of the Reciprocity Treaty

and when you had no licenses?—A. I think I always had licenses, but I would not be positive about it.

Q. Will you swear that you never evaded the license system?—A. I would not so swear, but I might possibly have done it. I am sure that I had a license every year.

Q. Do you mean that you had licenses but did not pay for them?-A. No; of course if I had them I paid for them. You don't generally give away much down in this country.

Q. Do I understand you to say that every year after the Reciprocity Treaty you fished in the bay, until the negotiation of the Washington Treaty, you had a license?—A. I say there might possibly be one year when I did not have one, but I think that I had one every year.

Q. Do I understand you to say you think you had a license every year?— A. I think I had; but possibly I did not once-during one year.

Q, And during that year, when you may not have had a license, did you go into the bay and run the risk of seizure?-A. Yes.

Q. And if the bay fishery was no good, why did you go there and run the risk of capture?-A. I do not think I was so foolish as that; but I might possibly have done so.

Q. Still you are not prepared to say that you did not do so?-A. I am not. My memory is not very good on that point; but I do not know—I might possibly have done so. I think I had a license every year that they granted them.

Q. Did you not speak about evading the cutters?-A. Of course. We did not go inshore when we saw the cutters.

in.

Q. Why?-A. If we saw a cutter ready to take us we would not go

Q. During what year was that?-A. It was any year and at any time. If I saw a man at any time going to take me I would keep away. Q. Then, during the Reciprocity Treaty, if you saw a cutter you would not go inshore?-A. During the treaty, of course we did not care for the cutters.

Q. When did you evade them?-A. We were afraid when they were there to take us, whether it was within three or five miles of the shore. Q. During what year were you so afraid ?—A. I do not know. It was after the Reciprocity Treaty when we were most afraid of them. Q. Was that in 1869?-A. Yes, about nine years ago.

Q. You did try to evade the cutters that year?-A. Yes; but I did not then go inside. I never hove to that year when I thought I was inside the limit.

Q. And eventually you went out of the bay on this account?-A. It was because I was in dread of the cutters, and not because I fished inside of the limit.

Q. Why were you in dread of the cutters if you had a license?—A. They would not then give licenses.

Q. In 1869?-A. No.

Q. Do you swear that no licenses were issued then?-A. I swear that when I left the bay the last year I was there they would not give me or grant any body licenses.

Q. And this was in 1869?-. It was in 1869 or 1870, or the year I left the bay, whichever it was.

Q. And you state that this was in 1869?—A. I think that it was eight years ago. No licenses were then issued, anyway.

Q. Then you went into the bay with full knowledge that you could not get a license?-A. Yes.

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