Q. How many barrels did you then get?-A. About 27.
Q. Then you went to the fishing-grounds ?-A. Yes.
Q. And afterwards came in to rebait ?-A. Yes.

Q. Where did you get the bait then?-A. At Fortune Bay.
Q. And you again obtained herring ?-A. Yes.

Q. What did you pay for it?—A. Thirty dollars.

Q. Did you then complete your codfish voyage?—A. No.

Q. You still again came in for bait?-A. Yes.

Q. What did you do afterwards?—A. I came in again and got caplin.

Q. Where did you go then?-A. I went to Torbay, northeast of St. John, and got bait and ice. I obtained ice and caplin there.

Q. What did you pay for them?-A. I think $36.

Q. Then you again went to the Banks?-A. Yes.

Q. Did you finish the voyage on this occasion ?—A. No; I came back

again.

Q. For squid?-A. Yes; to Torbay.

Q. What squid did you get?-A. I bought $110 worth.

Q. Where?-A. At Torbay.

Q. How much did you pay for it?-A. Thirty cents a hundred; that was for ice and all.

Q. At what time of the year was this?-A. In July.

Q. That price included ice?-A. Yes; my bait and ice cost me $110. Q. You went out then to the Banks, and did you complete the Voyage-A. No; I went in again.

Q. For what?-A. Squid.

Q. What did you do then?-A. I obtained the squid, and paid out about the same sum of money that I did before for ice and bait.

Q. Did you now go out and complete the voyage?-A. Yes; and I am now on my way home.

Q. With a full cargo ?-A. My cargo is not quite a full one.

Q. How many fish do you think that you now have?—A. About 175,000.

Q. And what is the tonnage of your vessel?-A. 73 tons.

Q. I believe that this has been a peculiarly unsuccessful season on the Banks-A. Fish have been scarce this year.

Q. They have not only been scarce, but they have also been very scarce? A. Yes. Last year I made two baitings, and I obtained bait— squid-on the Banks.

Q. Last year you obtained a full voyage with two baitings?-A. Yes. Q. Did you then go on a second cod fishing voyage?-A. Yes, but I did not get a full fare in the fall.

Q. What did you get on your second voyage?—A. An average share of the fleet was on the Bank, and I got 60,000.

Q. That is about half a voyage?-A. It is about one-third.

Q. And for this catch of 60,000 did you have two baitings ?-A. I had one baiting. This was the fall trip. I made two baitings on my first trip.

Q. And on your last trip you made three baitings on the coast of Newfoundland?-A. Yes. All the bait I took I got in Newfoundland. Q. You obtained 60,000 on your second trip, and what did you get on your first voyage last year?-A. 140,000.

Q. You obtained 200,000 on the two voyages?-A. Yes.

Q. You consider salt bait superior to fresh bait, I believe?-A. O, no; I think that fresh bait is the best.

Q. You do admit, then, that fresh bait is the best?-A. O, certainly, when other vessels on the Bank have it.

Q. When codfish see fresh bait they prefer it to salt bait?-A. Yes. Q. Consequently, you admit that it is of some advantage to you to be able to go to the coast of Newfoundland and get fresh bait?-A. O, yes; certainly it is; and our going there is an advantage to your people. Q. Do you not now consider that it is a very great advantage to you to be able to go there and get ice in which to preserve the fresh bait?— A. Yes.

Q. Do you throw overboard any of your small fish at the Banks?— A. We saved them all this year. I have thrown some of them overboard.

Q. Are all the fish you caught large?-A. No; we got some small fish.

Q. What did you do this year with the small fish?-A. We have them on board the vessel.

Q. What are you going to do with them?-A. I am carrying them home.

Q. Of what size are the small fish?-A. I think they are 18 or 19 inches long.

Q. Are they as small as that?-A. Yes.

Q. Have you sold any of them in Newfoundland ?-A. Yes.

Q. What did you get a quintal for them?-A. $1.40.

Q. Have you sold any cod-oil in Newfoundland ?-A. No.

Q. Do you not think that it would be a very great advantage to you to be able to transship your fish into vessels at Newfoundland and send them to market?-A. O, no.

Q. Would it be no advantage whatever to you?—A. I would not care about it. I would rather lug them home.

Q. You would rather continue to bait your vessels at Newfoundland until you get a full voyage, and then go home with it?-A. Yes.

Q. Your experience of the Bank fishery only extends over the period since 1875?—A. Yes; and I do not think that I will trouble it any more. I do not like it.

Q. Have you not made a very handsome profit this year?--A. I have made enough to keep me going.

Q. You caught 200,000 last year and 175,000 this year, and I am sufficient of a fisherman to know that these will yield you a handsome profit?-A. Hardly, for a vessel like ours.

Q. Do you calculate on dried fish?-A. I have 175,000 green; this is the way in which I sell them out of the vessel at home.

Q. I believe that the Bank fishing operations have been very profitable to the Americans heretofore-and previous to the Washington Treaty, when they only used salt bait?-A. Better fares were got on the Grand Banks before they ever commenced running fresh bait than has been the case since.

Q. Were not the American Banking fishing operations a profitable business prior to the Washington Treaty-you know as well as I do that this was the case?-A. I cannot tell you about the Banking business. Q. What induced you to go into these Banking operations-was it not because you knew that it was a profitable business with salt bait, and because you knew that it would be still more profitable with fresh bait?-A. O, no. I did not think anything about it. I have told you the reason why I went. I lost a friend in the gale, and then I went into the employment of Mansfield, who wanted his vessels to go cod-fishing. Q. Will you swear that Bank fishing operations were not a profitable

business prior to the Washington Treaty ?—A. No, I would not swear that.

Q. Has this not been a more profitable business since that treaty ?— A. I could not tell you anything about it.

Q. You know something about the curing of fish, I believe?-A. I tried to cure the voyage this summer, but I do not know whether I have done it right or not.

Q. But you do know something about it? A. Yes.

Q. How long do you keep the fish exposed to the sun at home in the process of curing?-A. About four days, I think; but I would not be certain on the point.

Q. And the fish is then considered fit for your, the American, market? -A. Yes; the time might be a day longer. It all depends on the weather. I think that four good days are quite sufficient for the purpose.

Q. Is not a profit made by the owner of the vessel, in the difference between the amount at which he pays off the crew and the amount which the fish is naturally worth in the market at the time?-A. Sometimes he makes something, and more frequently he does not. It all depends on the market. Sometimes he may pay $3 a hundred for the fish and get about $4, and then he loses money; he cannot make anything under such circumstances.

Q. But usually does he not pay off the fishermen at a less amount than the fish is naturally worth in the market at the time?-A. No. He generally pays them all he can afford to, as far as I can see. When you come to figure up their labor, the cost of the salt, and one thing and another.

Q. Are you now in a position to estimate what it will cost per quintal to cure the fish, as you have stated they are cured?—A. Well, no, I could not; but it will take a good many dollars when the expenses are figured up. I forget them.

Q. How was it just now that you could arrive so quickly at the esti mate of $1.50 a barrel as the cost of transshipment?-A. I thought that was what I paid the first year I transshipped.

Q. How did you arrive at it so quickly?—A. Because I thought it cost us that much.

Q. Before you came in here did you not, in conversation with Captain Bradley, agree as to the price you would so pay?—A. No. I did not say one word to Captain Bradley, any more than to bid him good day. Q. Then you did not confer with him before you came here?-A. No. Q. How did you arrive at the amount of $1.50?—A. I think we paid about one dollar freight per barrel one year.

Q. You thought so?-A. I think I did so the first year I shipped

mackerel.

Q. And do you mean to say that 50 cents a barrel was paid for the labor of transferring the barrels from one vessel to another?-A. That was for the labor at home, on the wharf and ashore.

Q. But the labor at home was the same, whether you transshipped or took the fish home in your own vessel ?-A. It was paid because the work had to be done at home.

Q. But the labor would be the same, and it would cost the same whoever it was done by A. I suppose so.

Q. You have said that you only used caplin bait?-A. Yes.

Q. And do you not consider that it was good?—A. It did not suit me

for bait, and I will never be bothered with caplin again.

Q. Do you not know that American Bankers prefer calpin for bait !— A. O, Yes.

Q. It keeps very well in ice, I believe?-A. What we had did not. Probably I did not understand icing it, or something of that kind.

Q. But what other American captains have had has turned out well, according to their report ?-A. I have not heard of any this year with whom it is the case.

Q. According to their reports it has turned out well?-A. I have heard of none that has turned out well this year.

Q. How many American vessels did you see this year getting bait, herring, &c., on the coast of Newfoundland?-A. I saw probably six or seven sail.

Q. That was when you were in here?-A. It was during all the year. Q. Did they not consider that it was a great advantage for them to be able to get fresh bait there?-A. Certainly it was an advantage, else they would not go there. They carry the bait out to the Banks, and those that do not do so get along without it.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. Your small fish will be sent westward ?—A. Yes.

Q. How many squid did you catch on the Banks last year?—A. I caught one-half of our fare with the squid which I got there last year.

By Mr. Whiteway:

Q. Had you a herring-seine on board your vessel last year and this year?-A. No; I never carry one.

Q. Do not many of your vessels take herring-seines to Newfoundland and seine herring?—A. I am not aware of it.

The conference met.

No. 3.

FRIDAY, August 31.

S. F. CHENEY, of Nantucket Island, Grand Manan, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined.

By Mr. Foster:

Question. State your name, residence, and occupation.-Answer. My name is Simon F. Cheney, from Grand Manan Island, and my occupa tion passes for that of fisherman.

Q. You are a British subject?-A. Yes.

Q. How many years have you been a fisherman?-A. Well, as near as I can judge, I first tried to catch fish when I was 15, and I am now 63 within a few months. Somewhere about 45 years.

Q. What have you fished for?—A. I have fished in boats for the support of my own family; to buy necessaries for my family.

Q. What kind of fish?-A. Codfish and pollock principally, and we have smoked herrings; that is, of late years; we did not at first.

Q. What becomes of the fish you catch besides what is eaten in your own family?-A. We market them, of course, to what we suppose the best advantage.

Q. To whom do you sell them?-A. We sell them sometimes in St. John; we used to. We have carried them to Eastport of late years, provided we could not do better. We have taken some to St. Andrew's. Q. Where is the principal market for your herring ?-A. Our principal market for herring? Well, smoked herring I have gone into mostly. I have never gone into the line of pickling herring but very little.

Q. But you know, I suppose, where the principal market is for the herring taken in your vicinity?-A. Well, so far as I have knowledge, I should suppose it would be in the American dominion.

Q. What kind of herring go there?-A. We go to Eastport. Of course, if we have pickled herring, we can dispose of them there to the best advantage.

Q. How far is it to Eastport ?-A. We call it 20 miles from the side of the island where we live.

Q. How large a quantity of smoked herring is produced in your vicin ity?—A. About the island of Grand Manan?

Q. Yes.-A. It varies. Some years there are more, and some years less. I never have undertaken to make any estimate of it; but it has been talked of among us that two or three hundred thousand boxes have been produced.

Q. What proportion of these is sold in the Canadas, and what proportion in the United States, as far as your judgment goes ?—A. I am not prepared to say, because I never go into such markets myself. I sell to nearer markets.

Q. You do not know whether more go to the United States?-A. No. I never went myself, even so far as Portland.

Q. Then your answer is that you don't know?-A. Yes.

Q. What do you know about frozen herring? What becomes of that?-A. We sell it from our own vessels sometimes. Mr. Gaskill, I think, was the greatest trader of our folks to send them away.

Q. To whom do they sell them?-A. They generally make their count to sell the frozen herrings to the Americans that come there.

Q. Well, is the trade with the Americans in frozen herrings, which your people have, a valuable one to your people?-A. It is considered so; yes, sir.

Q. If they did not sell them to the Americans, would they have a market for the frozen herrings?-A. I don't know of it. I don't know that they could have.

Q. How has the price of smoked herring stood of late years? Has it been high or low?-A. Well, for the last two or three years it has been quite low.

Q. What is the reason?-A. Well, our folks talk as if it was the dullness of the times.

Q. Is there abundance of it?-A. Herrings? There appears to be full more than is made a good use of.

Q. How much do the Americans fish for herrings in British waters, in your vicinity? Do they buy more than they catch, or catch more than they buy?-A. They buy more than they catch, as far as my knowledge goes.

Q. What do they pay your people in ?-A. Well, they bring flour with them, and, if we choose, a man that wants flour takes it, and if not, they give money.

Q. Well, when the Americans catch herring to freeze, how do they freeze it? Do they freeze it on shore, or on the vessels ?—A. I could not correctly answer. No, I never knew them freeze it on shore. They freeze them on deck.

Q. They do not land to do it?-A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. If your people were cut off from the American markets and could not sell their fish there, what would the effect be upon them?—A. Well, it is looked upon that we should be in poorer circumstances than we are now. I have talked to some on that subject. They think we are in a better standing than when we were paying the duty. As for myself