and my family, we are poor folks and would not be able to go into a large branch of the fishing business. It puts us in a good deal better position.

Q. Has the general condition of your fishermen become better or worse since the duty was taken off?-A. I think they are better off. I think they would consider themselves in a better condition.

Q. Which do you think is more for the interest of your people, to allow the Americans to fish alongside of them and to have the American market free of duty, or to exclude the Americans from British waters and be subjected to duty in the American markets?—A. I do not know how I could answer that. Probably it would not be an answer suitable to the question, what I would say. Would you ask the question again?

Question repeated.-A. I should say it is better not to pay the duty. It is better as it is.

Q. Then you prefer the condition of things under the Treaty of Washington-A. Yes.

Q. Now, suppose that American vessels were not allowed to come to your people to buy in their harbors frozen herring, how would you be able to dispose of them? What could you do with them there ?-A. As I have said before, I do not know what they could do with them. If we would have to take them to Eastport, we would run the risk of losing them. We could not take them there in our small boats, and would have to pay somebody freight, and by shipping it about, it would be liable to be lost.

Q. In your part of the country who began using the trawls; the Americans or the British ?-A. Well, now, I could not decidedly say that I would be correct, but the first trawls that were used about Grand Manan, to my knowledge, were used by our own people. I never knew of trawls being used inside of our fishing-grounds until our own people used them. I have spoken against those things, and I never did it in my life.

Q. Do you find pogies in your waters ?-A. We find them somewhat scattered. We could catch them sometimes, but they are scattered, and sometimes we would not see one in a whole season's fishing.

Q. How many American fishermen have you seen catching fish in your waters this year?-A. This year I haven't seen many. This last week, before I left-I was at Eastport on account of sickness. Before I left I heard that the fish had come in there, and that some had caught three quintals to a boat. No vessel had come in so far as I saw except to get bait.

Q. Codfish you are speaking of?-A. Yes.

Q. You smoke herring yourself, don't you?-A. I have all along until the last two years. My sons do.

Q. Who takes the herring that you and your sons secure?—A. We used formerly to send them to Eastport.

Q. Do you sell any of them now in Canada?-A. I never sent any to Canada but once, when Wilson was living at Campobello Island.

Q. In the Dominion anywhere, I mean?-A. Well, I have said that I sold a few in St. John occasionally.

Q. Now, do you think the fish of various kinds taken at Grand Manan would find a market in the Dominion of Canada, or would they oversupply the market of the Dominion?-A. Well, to the best of my judgment I suppose they could not find a satisfactory sale for them all here.

Q. Is there an abundant supply for your fishermen ?-A. Of fish, yes.

Q. Now, I did not like to ask some of the witnesses that we had here the other day from your neighborhood as to their own pecuniary condition, but I would like to know whether Mr. McLaughlin, Mr. McLean, Mr. Lord, and those other gentlemen that have been examined before the Commission here are growing poor or improving their financial condition ?—A. I can't say I am acquainted with Mr. Lord or McLean. I have seen them, but not to have acquaintance with them.

Q. How about Mr. McLaughlin ?-A. I have been acquainted with him from a boy.

Q. Well, he is prosperous, is he not?-A. Yes; he seems to be. He is not a fisherman. I think he once made an estimation in regard to this subject.

Q. Is not he in the fishing business?-A. I do not know that he ever hove a line.

Q. You have spoken of smoked fish going to the United States. Where does the herring-oil go?-A. They do send some of that, too.

Q. What is done with the hake sounds? Is that an important matter?-A. It is. It is a more paying product than the fish itself. I saw them sold at Eastport for 50 cents a pound.

Q. What do they do with those?-A. They manufacture them into different things.

Q. Do they make gum-drops out of them?-A. Some do.
Q. Isinglass?-A. Yes.

Q. Do you say the hake sound is worth more than the fish?—A. Well, three weeks ago they would not offer but 75 cents for 262 pounds of green hake, but they would give 50 cents a pound for sound. Then for the livers they would get 40 cents.

Q. Then the gurry of the hake is worth more than the fish?—A. Well, it is not exactly gurry.

Q. I have one question more to ask. Do the American fishermen down in your neighborhood behave any worse than the British ?—A. I think not. I think I have had worse people in my own boats. Some years ago we did have some from Cape Ann who killed fowls and pulled up potatoes. But we never had any half so bad as some of our own. Some from Deer Island. They killed tame ducks right in the yards. By Mr. Thomson:

Q. You live in Grand Manan?-A. Yes.

Q. You are not a practical fisherman yourself. You do not fish?-A. I have not for two years. I just left the smoked herring to theboys. Q. All that fishing is done in weirs?-A. The herring has been. Q. You had weirs on the shore? That is the way you chiefly conduct your fisheries?—A. Mine is an inshore weir. Some are away out in the deep water.

Q. Then I understand that you have not ever pursued as a business fishing in boats, but always in weirs?-A. No, not so. My line-fishing was boat-fishing.

Q. To what extent have you ever carried on boat-fishing?—A. Well, I have said, nothing more than principally to support my family. Ifish to get some little necessaries for my family.

Q. I suppose every man on Grand Manan who owns a bit of land would, during his leisure time, take his boat and get as much fish as he could for his family?-A. They ought to, unless they have something to prevent them.

Q. There are many persons there who make a business of fishing altogether? A. Yes.

Q. You are not one of those?-A. No; I never lived solely by it. I always had a little bit of land to work.

Q. And during your leisure moments, when you did not require to be occupied on your farm, you fished enough to get fish for your family? That is the whole story? You fished to get enough for your family ?A. It was for the support of my family.

Q. Do I understand that you got more fish than was consumed in your family?-A. O, yes.

Q. How many herrings would you get in the course of a year?—A. Smoked herrings? I never put up over 3,000 boxes a year; sometimes not over 2,000.

Q. What would they be worth a box?-A. That would be hard to answer. Sometimes we have sold them as high as 30 cents, and sometimes as low as 10 cents.

Q. Do you mean that since you have pursued the fisheries you have got an average of 3,000 boxes?-A. No. I never got higher than that. I only own a small part of a weir.

Q. All those were taken in weirs, were they not?-A. Yes.

Q. Those weirs are on the land, are they not, between high and low water mark?-A. Some are built in the tideway.

Q. The inshore weirs are what you use?-A. Yes.

Q. Not the tideway weirs?-A. No.

Q. Your weir is between high and low water mark ?-A. It is very near the low-water mark.

Q. It was in those weirs that you took the bulk of your herring?—A. Yes.

Q. Of those, you say you put up sometimes 3,000, and sometimes not over 2,000 boxes?-A. Just according as the catch of herring comes. The catch is a great deal less some years than others.

Q. You did not, as a rule, fish in your boats for the purpose of putting up herring?—A. Not of late years. Not since we built weirs. We

used to.

Q. How long was it since you did begin to use the weirs?-A. The first weirs were built, I should suppose, on Grand Manan, as nearly as I can come at it, about 37 years ago.

Q. Since that time you haven't fished in boats at all?-A. We have not fished in boats for herring.

Q. What time did you yourself commence to use these weirs?—A. I helped to build the first weir that was built.

Q. After that you ceased to fish in boats, and depended upon the weirs?-A. You understand our weirs do not fish at all times. My weirs seldom or ever fish until September.

Q. After you commenced to use these weirs did you depend upon them for your supply of fish?-A. No, I could not depend upon the weir solely, because they did not always fish. It is only for two or three months. They would not get herring enough to pay expenses and support a family. I had to take a boat.

Q. Would you in September take a boat and fish in each year?-A. All along through the summer, before the weirs fished, we would do so. I do not mean by that before the weirs were built, but before they began in each season to catch fish.

Q. What time would that be?-A. They would begin about September. Q. This year have you taken any fish in weirs?-A. No.

Q. Have you been fishing in boats?—A. I have not myself; my boys have been.

Q. What kind of boats do they generally use?-A. Various sizes. There are a great many large two-sail boats with a jib on them.

Q. What kind of boats have you used for the last eight or ten years?— A. I never used anything but small boats. I did not fish the last two years at all.

Q. You don't go out to take herrings?-A. Well, we generally have a skiff and a separate boat.

Q. Have you a skiff or a boat?-A. I have a keel-boat for fishing on a flat bottom for the herring fishery.

Q. For the herring-fishing you used a skiff? A. Yes.

Q. How far from the shore do you obtain your fish-I now refer to herring-A. We go to our weirs.

Q. I am not speaking of the weirs. You say you get no fish in your weirs until September?-A. I don't try to fish in boats until the herring come into the weirs.

Q. Then I understand you to say that you do not attempt to catch herring with boats, but you only use boats to take the fish from the weirs?-A. That is what we do.

Q. As regards the herring, you do not take them till September?-A. Yes, the weir herring.

Q. Did you ever go out with your skiff and take herring except out of your weirs?-A. Not in our weir skiff.

Q. We will dismiss the skiff from our consideration and make the acquaintance of the boat. Did you go out in the boat to catch herring? -A. We went out to the Ripplings to look for herring.

Q. Have you gone out to the Ripplings during the last ten years?— A. No; I have not.

Q. How long is it since you last went out there?-A. I cannot tell. Q. Twenty years ago?-A. Probably 12 or 14 years ago.

Q. Have you got that boat yet?-A. No.

Q. Have you got any boat in place of it?—A. Yes; another which we use for that business.

Q. For what do you use the new boat?-A. Not to go herring-fishing. Q. For what do you use it ?-A. For cod-fishing-line-fishing.

Q. I understand that all the fish you have taken for the last 14 years are fish taken with your skiff and out of your weirs?—A. That is berring-fishing. I cannot say I have myself taken my boat and gone to catch anything in any other way except out of my weirs.

Q. And you do not begin to do that till September?-A. Yes.

Q. How early in spring do the herring strike in at Grand Manan?— A. It varies a great deal.

Q. What time did they strike in this year?-A. This spring they did not strike in until late.

Q. Where did they strike in ?-A. At North Head. You are speak. ing of the weir fish?

Q. I am speaking generally of herring.-A. The net herring and small weir herring are different. We look for the herring striking first at North Head.

Q. What is the difference between the North Head herring which strike in in the spring and weir herring?—A. For spring herring a two and a half inch mesh is used, and for weir herring a two inch mesh.

Q. Then I understand that the weir herring is a small and inferior herring compared with the other?-A. At times they are; they are mixed schools.

Q. Take them as a body, are the herring taken in weirs inferior?—A. The herring are inferior, as they are so very different in size. We get mixed schools. Not one-half can we string to cure. Our weir herring are small. They are not so large as net herring.

Q. As a rule, are not weir herring inferior herring?—A. They are, because they are mixed. Large and small mixed cannot be as valuable as herring of a regular size.

Q. Then herrings taken in nets are large herring?-A. The meshes of the nets are large enough to allow small herring to go through; but in the weirs we take all kinds.

Q. The boat fishermen don't care to take the small herring?—A. Not while it is netting time.

Q. The herrings they generally put up for export are large ?-A. Yes, those they barrel, unless they freeze some in the winter season.

Q. The trade in barreling fish is one you have not engaged in ?-A. No.

Q. You have applied yourself solely to the trade in small herring put up in boxes?-A. Yes; to the weir fish.

Q. Then, in point of fact, you cannot speak from any experience or knowledge regarding the trade in large herring?-A. I have had no experience in that.

Q. Then the opinions of persons actually engaged in it would be worth four times as much as your opinion?-A. I suppose so. I should say the man who had always been in the business would be the man who would be the best judge.

Q. Take Mr. McLaughlin, the overseer of fisheries there, is he not a man of great experience in all kinds of fishing?-A. He may have eugaged in fish trading, but he does not fish. I do not know that he ever fished. I would not swear that he has not done so.

Q. How far does he live from you?-A. Fifteen or sixteen miles.

Q. What he does you cannot have any credible knowledge of, unless you always keep an eye on him?-A. He has not attended to fishing since he got the light-house.

Q. Do you undertake to say that he did not fish before he took charge of the light-house?-A. Before that time I do not know what he did. Q. Do you know whether he did or did not fish?-A. I cannot say. Q. He is the officer who went round and got statistics of all the fish caught on the island?—A. I think I recollect that he took some estimate of the fish.

Q. He is fishery officer, and that is his business?-A. He did that. Q. He went round to find out what your annual catch was?—A. I think so.

Q. He went over the island?-A. I think he did.

Q. He is a man of good, strong common sense, a decent, practical man?-A. I suppose so.

Q. He is county councilor for your county?—A. I cannot recollect; I was not at any town meeting.

Q. You live on the island and you cannot tell who your county councilor is?-A. I have not inquired this season. I was not able to go to the meetings.

Q. Don't you take sufficient interest in your public affairs, even though you did not attend the meetings, to know who was elected?-A. I do not think I have seen Mr. McLaughlin since.

Q. Do you not know that the county of Charlotte has ceased to be governed by justices, and has become a municipality, governed by councilors-A. I have heard it talked of. I heard Mr. Newton and Mr.