Q. Did the Americans, when they told you trawling had destroyed the fishing on their coast, tell you the reason why it had destroyed the fishing-A. They may not have named every circumstance. They thought they destroyed the fish ; but they always told me this-that they threw gurry into the water. Most of the people say the trawls will catch the fish lying still at the bottom, old and spawning fish which will not take a line having the motion of the hand.

Q. All the mother fish which would keep at the bottom, if properly fished by hand, are caught by trawls?-A. I would not say all. That is what they say. I will tell you an instance which was told me at home a week before I left. It came through two mouths. The man told it to my son and he told it to me. The man said they fished in 19 fathoms of water and caught some of the biggest fish they ever caught, and he told the story that three of them would fill a tub. Some of them had the spawn ripe enough to come out. Probably you will say it is au American fish story; I suppose it is.

Q. Do Americans stop at your house during the season?—A. Fishermen come ashore and get their water-barrels filled, and sometimes a bushel of cherries.

Q. Did you ever hear from anybody that trawling was the proper mode of fishing?-A. I don't think I did that it was the proper mode of fishing.

Q. They all said trawls were bad for the fishery?-A. I talked to a man this summer about it, and he thought it was injurious to fishing and did away with the fish, and he was willing to give it up, if they would all do so. I don't remember his name; he was a stranger to me. Q. On the American coast, opposite Grand Manan, there is a large colony of fishing people, I believe?-A. Yes; there are a good many fishermen there.

Q. Are you aware that they send boats over to fish in Grand Manan waters ?-A. They come there. I see them there frequently.

Q. About how many American boats frequent the shores of Grand Manan and fish there -A. I don't know. Only about four last sunimer came down my way. I saw but four and one big vessel.

Q. Five in your neighborhood last summer?—A. Yes.

Q. How many were round other parts of the island?-A. I did not visit North Head to know what stopped there.

Q. It is notorious that American fishermen come from the mainland and fish round the island?-A. They frequently come and stop a while and go away again.

Q. Of course, after they have got their catch they do not stop any longer?-A. If they come to fish and do not find them they go back; but if they find fish they stop and fish a week and go back.

Q. Are you aware that they all fish at Campobello, the Western Isles, and Deer Island ?-A. No doubt all the Passamaquoddy people fish round Passamaquoddy River. I saw a number of them the other day out in boats.

Q. All the fish taken in these places are taken in British waters?—A. I could not say all; the principal part of them is. Those boats I saw the other day down at Cherry Island. But I also saw some the other day down at Eastport.

Q. Don't you know there is no fishing at Eastport ?-A. Not to speak of. There are no fish on the anchoring ground.

Q. Nor any close by Lubeck ?—A. I have seen fish taken off Lubeck, and also east off Fires Head and what is now called Treat's Island; but they were small codfish and haddock.

Q. How far is that from Campobello?-A. About half a mile west of it.

Q. Campobello is an English island?-A. Yes.

Q. Then you speak of fish caught within half a mile of Campobello?A. Yes; I know that a few fish were taken there, small cod and had. dock; but the fishing-grounds are close to Cherry Island and off that way.

Q. Do you know anything about the fishing round Metite?-A. No;
I never fished there. I never threw a line in Passamaquoddy River.
Q. Have you heard there is good fishing there?-A. Yes; I have
seen plenty of boats there.

Q. It is close by Cherry Island?-A. Yes. When there is a slack tide they can go farther into the river.

Q. Do you know anything about the boat-fishing in Black Bay ?-A. I never fished there.

Q. Have you heard there is good fishing there?-A. I have heard they sometimes catch pollock there. I don't think that pollock run there as they used to do, because the people of Black Bay are mostly at our place.

Q. When you say that if you were shut out from the American market you could not get a market in the Dominion, as the matter now stands, you are talking about something you don't know ?-A. That may be so.

Q. Is it not so?-A. When our people send fish by our men to St. John, they come back with less money than if they had sent the fish to Eastport; it does not pay as well.

Q. How long ago was that?-A. My sons and my neighbors put up perhaps 6,000, 7,000, or 8,000 boxes of herring, and I only put up 2,000 boxes last fall.

Q. Do you speak only of smoked herring?-A. They want to dispose of their herring to the best advantage. They send them to New York, Boston, Eastport, and St. John, and when they have sold any at St. John they say it would have paid better to have sold them at Eastport. That is the general talk.

Q. How long ago was that?-A. It is every year. The last time was about four weeks ago.

Q. Then in spite of this loss at St. John, they still send smoked her ring there, though the American market is open and free ?-A. Yes. They have not carried many there since the fire.

Q. Did they make money before the fire by selling smoked herring at St. John?-A. They did not consider they did as well.

Q. Why did they send to St. John when the American market was open to them, if they could do better there ?-A. The prices vary. Probably if you go to Eastport and carry in a great many herring, the dealers, finding there are plenty coming in, would not offer a large price; and so a vessel would run over to St. John.

Q. When the fishermen could not get the prices they wanted at Eastport, they would go to St. John and do better?-A. They would prob ably not do better, but they would go and try.

Q. They could not sell at Eastport?-A. The people there have a rule that when they find plenty of fish coming in, they don't care to pay what they would if the fish were scarce.

Q. Then they do better, if instead of selling at Eastport, they go to St. John-A. They come back and say they have not done so well as if they had sold at Eastport.

Q. Sometimes they do better?-A. Sometimes. They trade in salt sometimes for fish.

Q. Do you know anything about pickled fish?-A. No.

Q. Do you know anything about the markets for fresh fish ?—A. I don't make inquiries in regard to that matter.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. How deep is 15 fathoms ?-A. There are 6 feet to a fathom.

Q. Some inquiries were put to you about taking herring in the close season; who does the most of that?-A. Probably I would get blamed for saying anything about that, because I was not there to see. It is not a thing a man can speak about. I might get blamed if I was to say that three-fourths of the herring netted in those three months were taken by our own people. I would not say it was so.

Q. If Americans come in vessels and large boats, then your people, I suppose, sell them herring ?-A. Yes.

Q. How long do you understand cured fish has been going into the States free of duty?-A. Five or six years.

Q. Did the people pay any duty on it before that?-A. They had been paying a duty.

Q. About how many years before had there been a duty?—A. I never gave my mind to think what year it was; I never booked it, and for that reason my memory fails me.

Q. Was there any period when cured fish went in free of duty before this last time?-A. I think there was.

Q. Do you remember what was called the Reciprocity Treaty?—A. Yes.

The Conference met.

No. 4.

WEDNESDAY, September 19, 1877.

DAVID INGERSOLL, of Gloucester, Mass., mariner and fisherman, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined.

By Mr. Foster:

Question. You live in Gloucester, Mass.?-Answer. Yes.

Q. What is your age?--A. Fifty-five.

Q. You have been a fisherman all your life, I believe?-A. Yes; ever since I was nine years old.

Q. At what age and in what year did you first go fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. I was thirteen years old the first time ever I came. Q. That was in what year?-A. I am now fifty-five years old.

Q. Well, you were in the gulf-fishing as a boy for the first years?A. Yes, sir; I was three or four years in the bay right off at that time. Q. What was the first year you came here as the skipper of a schooner?A. The first year was 1847.

Q. You fished for mackerel altogether?-A. Yes.

Q. During the early years you were here, before you got to be skipper, where were you in the habit of fishing for mackerel ?-A. Mostly at Bradley and Orphan at those times, abroad off Gaspé and about there.

Q. Begin now with 1847, when you were first here as skipper, what was the name of the schooner and what the tonnage ?-A. The schooner Mary Eliza. She was, I think, 54 tons.

Q. That would be, in 1847, old tonnage?-A. Yes, that was before the new tonnage.

Q. How many mackerel did you catch that year and where were they caught?-A. That year we got 180 barrels, I think. We caught them at the Magdalens.

Q. All of them?-A. Yes; all of them at the Magdalens that year. Q. Come to 1848; what vessel were you in then?-A. The schooner Cape Ann.

Q. How many mackerel did you take and where?-A. We got, I think, 220 barrels.

Q. In the year 1847 you took how many barrels, did you say?—A. 180.

Q. Was that your full catch?—A. Well, we were fitted out for about 200.

Q. Then in 1848 you were in the Cape Ann ?—A. Yes.

Q. How many barrels did you take?—A. 220, I think.

Q. Was that a full fare?-A. No, we were fitted out for 300.

Q. Where did you take them?-A. We caught them at Magdalens and Bradley and around in that direction; mostly at the Magdalens. Q. Did you take any of the first two years' catches within three miles, except at the Magdalens?-A. No; not those years.

Q. Now in 1849 and 1850, were you in the Gulf of St. Lawrence ?—A. No. I was not there.

Q. Where were you then?—A. I was away to sea.

Q. In 1851, were you in the gulf?-A. I was in the schooner Dolphin. Q. As skipper?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, how many barrels of mackerel did you get?—A. I think it was 180.

Q. And was that a full fare?—A. No, sir. We fitted for, I think it 280.

was,

Q. Where did you take those 180 ?-A. We caught them, as near as I can recollect, most of them off what we call Pigeon Hill.

Q. How many miles from land?-A. Well, I should say we were twelve or fifteen miles off, and sometimes more than that. Sometimes we would just see the land, and then again we would see quite plainly. Q. Was any portion of that year's catch taken within three miles! Was any portion taken within three miles of shore in 1851 ?—A. I don't think there was. I don't recollect. I didn't get over five barrels within the three-mile limit, I don't think. Five miles we might, because we used sometimes to stand inshore and heave to and see if there was any. thing. Another thing, that year the Canadian cutters where we fished were running backward and forward across the Bay Chaleurs, and where we fished she took no notice of us where we were fishing, and therefore we must have been over three miles off.

Q. Point out where Pigeon Hill is?-A. (Witness points on the map to Pigeon Hill, near Shippegan, about the mouth of Bay Chaleurs.) There is high land there, and it is what we call Pigeon Hill.

Q. Now, from 1851 to 1865, what were you doing?-A. Well, sir, I don't know as I can tell you. I was all over the world.

Q. You were not in command of any fishing-vessel ?-A. No. For about fourteen years there most of the time I went to sea. I used to go away in the winter, and didn't get home in time in the summer to take a vessel. I was all over the world almost.

Q. In 1865, where were you then?—A. In 1865 I was in the schooner Martha A. Porter.

Q. In the gulf?-A. Yes; in command of her.

Q. Now, how many barrels of mackerel did you get, where did you fish for them, and where did you get them?—A. I took 180 barrels, or 170 I think it was. We got them at the Magdalens.

Q. All of them?—A. Yes, all of them.

Q. In 1866 what were you doing, the next year after the first you were in the Martha Porter?-A. I think I was not in the bay-I think to the Georges.

Q. Cod-fishing?-A. Yes.

Q. In 1867, what were you doing?-A. I was in the bay, I think.

Q. In what vessel?-A. The Martha Porter.

Q. Where did you fish and how many did you take?—A. In 1867 I think it was 120 barrels, if I recollect aright.

Q. Where were they taken ?-A. Well, we caught some at the Magdalens, and some at East Point, and some half way across from East Point to the Magdalens.

Q. What proportion of those, if any, were taken within three miles of the shore?-A. I don't know that we caught any within three miles of the shore. We might; we might possibly have got a barrel or two, but we didn't fish within three miles, because we could get no fish within three miles of the shore.

Q. Take the following year, 1868, what vessel were you in then ?—A. I was in the Phoenix.

Q. How large was she?-A. One hundred and one tons, new measurement.

Q. How many mackerel did you take and where?-A. We took 180 barrels; I think it was 180 barrels.

Q. Whereabouts were they caught?-A. Well, they were caught at the Magdalens, for I fished there all the time. No; I am mistaken. That 180 barrels were caught off Gaspé, Bonaventure-off Bonaventure, you might call it.

Q. What portion of those, if any, the first year in the Phoenix, did you take within three miles?-A. We didn't get any. When we came we ran right to the Magdalens, and didn't find any mackerel, and we ran right across there and went into the Bay Chaleurs and tried, and didn't find anything, and went outside. The first time we got outside we struck mackerel, and I believe it was about three weeks we staid there and got 180 barrels. That is all we were fitted for. We calculated to go to the Georges, and didn't fish any more.

Q. In 1869 what were you doing?—A. I was to the Georges.
Q. In the same vessel?—A. Yes.

Q. Still as captain ?-A. Yes.

Q. Cod fishing, I suppose?-A. Yes.

Q. In 1870 what were you doing?-A. I was in the bay.

Q. In what vessel ?-A. In the Phoenix.

Q. How many barrels did you take and where did you take them?— A. I think there was 170-I think 120. I won't be sure whether 120 or 170 barrels were taken. I caught them at the Magdalens.

Q. In 1871 what were you doing, and 1872 ?-A. In 1871 and 1872 I was in the Joe Hooker, to the Georges both years-not in the gulf. Q. In 1873 where were you?-A. I was in the Carlton.

Q. Where did you go?-A. To the bay.

Q. How many trips?-A. We went two trips that year.

Q. How many barrels did you get the first trip and where did you get them?-A. The first trip we got 300 barrels.

rels and packed 300.

We had 310 sea-bar