Q. Yes.-A. I could not tell you how often, but I have been there a number of times.

Q. Were you in there as one of a crew?-A. I went in as a hand; yes, sir.

Q. How were you paid? Did you go on shares or by the month ?— A. I went on shares.

Q. Now, do you mean that you were in there every year or nearly every year from the time you were thirteen to the year 1847 ?—A. No; not every year. There were about thirteen years I was all over the world. Sometimes I would be home for a year or two.

Q. When was that?-A. I could not give the date.

Q. Was it after you were a skipper in 1847 or before it ?-A. It was after I was a skipper that I went away.

Q. Now, how often were you in the bay before the year 1847 ?—A. I could not state how often I was there. I venture to say I was there two-thirds of the years from the time I began going until I was skipper.

Q. You began to go when you were thirteen, and went almost every year?-A. No; not almost every year.

Q. Did you say two-thirds of the years?-A. I didn't say just twothirds; I might have been there two-thirds of the years.

Q. You ought to know.-A. I don't know because I didn't keep any record.

Q. Is your memory bad?-A. No; but it will not allow me to recol. lect from the time I was thirteen to fifty-five.

Q. You do recollect that you were thirteen years old when you commenced?-A. Yes.

Q. And you recollect when you began as skipper?-A. I was nine years old when I began to go fishing.

Q. Did you go into the bay then?-A. No; I was thirteen years old when I went into the bay.

Q. You went as a hand, and got your share? A. Yes.

Q. Was it a profitable business?-A. Well, I don't know how profit. able it was then.

Q. Did it pay you well?-A. I don't know; I was at work for my father, and he took my earnings.

Q. Did he tell you it was a good business?-A. No; he didn't want me to go, but I wanted to go, and I suppose I will have to keep going now. He only gave me my victuals and clothes. When I was nineteen was the first time I went for myself.

Q. You never took the trouble to inquire how much he made off your fishing?-A. I know one year he settled for me, and I earned him $300 by fishing. I recollect that because it was a big sum then.

Q. That was fishing in the gulf?-A. No; I was in the gulf that year, but I began to go to the Georges in February, and went there until Julyafter the 4th of July.

Q. Then you mean that the bulk was made at the Georges ?—A. I mean that some was made at the Georges and some in the gulf.

Q. Where was the greatest portion made?-A. The biggest portion on the Georges, because we were a longer time about it.

Q. How much did you make there?-A. About two-thirds of the whole.

Q. What year was that?-A. I don't know.

Q. Was that when you were nineteen years old?—A. Yes.

Q. You settled for yourself?-A. No. I said I settled for myself when I was nineteen.

Q. Was this that year when you were nineteen?-A. No; it was some time before that.

Q. You say you made $300 that year for your father. I thought you said you did not know what you made until you settled for yourself?A. No. I said I did not know except this one year, because I made a big year's work.

Q. Did he tell you you had made a big year's work?-A. He might have told me, or the crew might have said. I know they made $300 a share.

Q. How did you, as a matter of fact, get the information?—A. I cannot tell you; I don't know.

Q. Well, as to the other years, you cannot tell whether you made money or lost?-A. Of course I made money. I had nothing to lose, and could not lose anything.

Q. Your father did not lose?-A. He had nothing to lose. He had nothing to lose, and I have not either.

Q. Did the vessels make money on those trips?-A. I don't know what they made.

Q. You never asked ?-A. They have always told me when I have been skipper that they never made anything. Whether it is so or not I don't know.

Q. The owners tell you that, and I suppose you contradict them?— A. I don't contradict them. I don't know and don't care, so long as I get my money.

Q. You believe them when they tell you they don't make any money! -A. Well, I know just about what mackerel are got, and I can tell a little about it myself.

Q. Do you believe them or do you not?-A. Sometimes I do and sometimes I do not.

Q. Which is the rule; how often do you believe them?-A. I can't tell you how often. It is according to how much money I have stopped. If I have stopped $9,000, and they tell me that they have not made any thing, I believe they lie; if I have stopped $3,000 or $4,000, and they tell me they are not making anything, I believe they tell the truth.

Q. How often do they lie and how often do they tell the truth ?—A. I can't tell how often.

Q. What is a fair charter per month for a vessel of 70 tons?—A. I don't know.

Q. You have been in the fishing business ever since you were thirteen and don't know?-A. I don't know anything about chartering. I never chartered one. It used to be a good many years ago from $1.80 to $2 a ton. I don't know what it is now.

Q. For how long is that?-A. That would be for the whole season, as long as they chartered for, whether four or five months, so much per month.

Q. Was that an ordinary figure?-A. I don't know what it is now. I suppose a good deal more.

Q. Why more?-A. I don't know why; because everything is more, I supose.

Q. Is it because fish are more plenty, or what is the reason ?—A. Because there are not so many, I should say.

Q. But would men hire a vessel at a very large price to catch a few fish-A. They don't hire, because they don't charter vessels now.

Q. Do you mean that the owners run them on their own account?— A. They do run them on their own account.

Q. They refuse to charter?-A. They have more vessels than they know what to do with. The owners don't want to charter.

Q. I understand that the owners don't want to charter for themselves. Don't they want to charter to outsiders?—A. No; because they have vessels enough that they own.

Q. Don't the owners of vessels wish to charter their vessels to outsiders-A. They won't charter to outsiders.

Q. Why?-A. Because that is not their business. If you charter a vessel you have to charter her where she was built, a new vessel.

Mr. Dana suggests that the witness attaches a different meaning to the word "charter" from that intended by counsel.

By Mr. Thomson:

Q. What do you mean by chartering a vessel ?-A. I mean, if you have a vessel and I come and charter her of you and pay you so much a month.

Q. Then I don't think you and I disagree. You mean that the owners do not desire any person to charter a vessel from them?-A. That is what I mean.

Q. Why?-A. I mean those fish-owners that own vessels.

Q. They don't desire that any person should come and charter vessels from them—A. No.

Q. Why?-A. I don't know.

Q. Is it because it is more profitable to them to run them themselves?-A. I suppose they would rather run them themselves than ruu the risk.

Q. It is a more paying business for them to run their own vessels than to allow them to be chartered by outsiders?-A. Well, it is not their business to charter.

Q. Did you not tell me just now that they had more vessels than they knew what to do with ?-A. I said they had enough without chartering them themselves.

Q. I understood from you that they had too many vessels; would they not desire to charter them to anybody?-A. Well, I should think some of them had too many.

Q. Well, say if they have.-A. I don't know whether they have too many. I say I should think so.

Q. Who do you think has ?-A. I don't think anybody has.

Q. I thought you said they had?-A. I say, in my own mind, they have. Perhaps they think they have not enough.

Q. You told me just now you thought there were some that had too many vessels -A. That is my own mind. Then I might go to the owner and tell him, and he would tell me to mind my own business. Q. Tell me who you think has too many.-A. I don't think anybody has.

Q. Then why did you say so? Now, in 1817-that is the first year. Mr. Foster examined you about-you went in the bay in the Mary Eliza -A. Yes, sir.

Q. That year you got 180 barrels ?-A. Yes.

Q. How do you recollect the number of barrels ?-A. I can recollect from one minute to another, but I can't recollect eight, ten, fifteen, twenty, or thirty years ago.

Q. Well, are you sure you cannot recollect thirty years ago?—A. No, I suppose I might recollect some things, and some I could no.

Q. But, as a rule, you would not recollect anything that happened thirty years ago?-A. Perhaps some things I would, and some things not.

Q. Do you think it is likely you would, or not?-A. I think it is likely

I should.

Q. Well, then, what made you say you could recollect from one minute to another, but not thirty years ago?-A. Because I could recollect from one minute to another better than thirty years ago.

Q. I asked you how you recollected the number of barrels, and you said you could recollect from one minute to another, but could not recol. lect thirty years. What was the point of that?-A. You just asked me, and I said I could recollect it.

Q. Do you say you can or that you cannot recollect what happened thirty years ago?-A. I can recollect some things.

Q. But as a rule you cannot ?-A. Other things I could not recollect. Q. What things?-A. I can't tell you what things.

Q. Could you recollect the number of barrels you took thirty years ago?-Well, no, I could not. That is too long ago to recollect the num ber of barrels.

Q. Could you recollect the number you took twenty years ago?-A. Well, yes, I think I could.

Q. You might recollect the number twenty years ago, but the number thirty years ago is out of the question. You could not recollect that. Is that so?-A. I could not recollect. I can't recollect everything twenty or thirty years ago.

Q. Would you be able to recollect rightly the number of barrels you took in a vessel twenty years ago?-A. Yes; I should be likely to, of

course.

Q. Could you twenty-five years ago?-A. I don't know.

Q. Thirty years ago, you say you could not?-A. I did not say that. I said I might, or I might not.

Q. Did you not tell me you could not ?—A. I did not tell you so. Q. Did not I ask you, among other things, whether you could recollect the number of barrels you took thirty years ago, and did not you say no, you could not?-A. I say there are some things I could recol lect and some things I could not.

Q. You say now there are some things you could not recollect. Did not you tell me you could not recollect the number of barrels you took thirty years ago? If you are wrong, say so.-A. I say I cannot recol lect.

Q. Now, you say you can't recollect what took place thirty years ago, and you have some doubts whether you can recollect what took place twenty years ago. Among other things, you have stated that you took 180 barrels in 1847, which happens to be thirty years ago, just the period as to which you swear now that you cannot recollect. You see, that is very curious.-A. Well, I told you there might be some things I could recollect and some I could not.

Q. You have outrun your memory ten years. In point of fact, this must have been 1857 you refer to, as your memory does not run back beyond twenty years. You still stick to the statement that in 1847, thirty years ago the very time as to which you say you cannot recol lect, you got 180 barrels ?-A. Yes. Well, there are a good many things, as I told you, that happened thirty years ago that I could not recollect.

Q. I asked you distinctly to tell me whether you could remember the number of barrels you took thirty years ago, and to correct yourself, if you were wrong, and you persisted in saying that you could not recol lect how many barrels you took thirty years ago, although you would

swear as to what took place twenty years ago. You still stick to the statement that you got these 180 barrels ?-A. Of course.

Q. When did you recollect it? Where did you get the figures from? Did you bear it in your memory all the time, or has your memory been refreshed?-A. I know what vessel I was in, and what mackerel I caught.

Q. You just remember it all along?. Had you any idea that 1847 was thirty years ago?-A. I don't mind of noticing anything about it.

Q. You say you got them at Magdalen Islands, and your full fare would have been 220, if I understood you right. Is that so?-A. Yes; somewheres about that.

Q. What was the tonnage of the Mary Eliza ?-A. Fifty-odd tons.

Q. Would not a fifty-ton vessel take a good deal more than 220 barrels? Would she not take nearer 400; would not she take 300, at any rate-A. No, because there was not room enough.

Q. Two hundred and twenty, then, would be pretty nearly a full fare?-A. No; about 220 to 250.

Q. Now, you got these 180 barrels at Magdalen Islands?-A. Yes. Q. And you fished nowhere else?-A. No.

Q. That is a curious thing. It is an expensive thing to run a vessel from Gloucester, is it not? You went straight to the Magdalen Islands? A. Yes.

Q. Through the Gut of Canseau, of course?-A. Yes.

Q. You did not attempt to fish anywhere else, and came home with very little better than half a cargo ?-A. Yes.

Q. You did not attempt to fish anywhere else?-A. There was no mackerel anywhere else.

Q. You did not try anywhere else?—A. I did not say we did not try anywhere else; we might have tried in running across to Magdalen Islands.

Q. I am not asking you whether you might have tried, but whether you did try.-A. We did try in running across to Magdalen Islands. Q. Did you not say you ran straight to Magdalen_Islands, and that you did not try because it would be no use?-A. I say now we ran straight to Magdalen Islands.

Q. Did you not say you did not try because it would be no use?—A. We did not fish anywhere else.

Q. You are positive you did not fish anywhere else?-A. We did not fish anywhere else than at Magdalen Islands. We might have hove to to see if there was any mackerel, and if we did not raise any we kept going along. We ran straight to Magdalen Islands, but we hove to morning and night.

Q. Did you try anywhere else?-A. We tried on running across; we tried when we hove to at night.

Q. Why did you say you did not try?-A. We did not catch mackerel anywhere else except at Magdalen Islands.

Q. If you say that throwing a line overboard when going across the bay is trying, what did you mean by saying you did not try because it would be no use?-A. We were scudding; we hove to night and morning, and we tried for fish.

Q. Is it true or not that you did try elsewhere than at the Magdalen Islands?-A. We caught our mackerel at the Magdalen Islands.

Q. My question is this: Did you try to catch fish anywhere else than at the Magdalen Islands, on that occasion?-A. We tried only when running across; we might have hove to once.

Q. You ran straight from Gloucester, through Canso, across to Mag