dalen Islands, never trying to fish anywhere except at the Magdalen Islands, unless when you hove to once or twice crossing the bay -A. That is what I have stated.

Q. Why did you not try down on the coast of Prince Edward Island, instead of running home with a partial cargo ?-A. Because there were no mackerel there.

Q. You did not go to try?—A. We saw vessels which did try. We did not want to go there because vessels coming from there to the Magdalen Islands said there were no mackerel.

Q. Can you give the names of the vessels?-A. No; I cannot tell you the names.

Q. Tell me the name of any one of the vessels which gave you that information.-A. I cannot tell you.

Q. Where did the vessels come and give you that information ?—A. They came to the Magdalen Islands.

Q. They told you there were no fish off Prince Edward Island?-A. Certainly. When we saw a vessel which came from Prince Edward Island we asked if there were any mackerel there, and they told us whether there were or not.

Q. Did all the vessels which you spoke with come from Prince Edward Island?-A. I don't mean all.

Q. Did all which gave you that information?-A. I cannot tell where they had been fishing, because I did not see them fishing.

Q. Did they tell you where they had been fishing?-A. I asked them if there were any mackerel at Prince Edward Island, and they said no. Q. Did you not inquire if they had been fishing there?-A. Of course not, because I supposed they had been fishing there if they came from there.

Q. How did you know they had come from there?—A. Because they said they came from there.

Q. My question is: Did all the vessels which came there and gave you that information say they had come from Prince Edward Island?— A. They did not all come from Prince Edward Island.

Q. From where else did they come?-A. Some from Margaree, some from North Cape, the West Shore, and all round the bay. They don't all come to one place or stay in one place.

Q. And there were no mackerel at any of these places?-A. There might have been at times.

Q. Did they say so?-A. When they came to the Magdalen Islands they did not find any elsewhere, or they would not have come.

Q. Did you ask if there were any mackerel at Prince Edward Island?— A. I asked "Have you got any mackerel over there at the island!" and they answered "No." If I saw a vessel come from the nor❜ard, I asked if there was any mackerel there, and they said no. If mackerel had been there I would have gone.

Q. Why did you not go to Gaspé and Bay Chaleurs and try, instead of going back without a full fare?-A. Did I say I did not go there and try? I said we caught our mackerel at Magdalen Islands.

Q. You stated you tried at no places, except, when going across the bay, you hove to, but you can alter the statement if you wish.-A. I am not going to alter the statement.

Q. What did you mean by putting to me the question, "Did I say I did not go into Bay Chaleurs?" Did you mean the Commission to understand that you had gone into Bay Chaleurs ?-A. I was not in Bay Chaleurs that year.

Q. Then why did you say, "Did I say I did not go into Bay Chaleurs?"-A. I did not put it to you.

Q. I asked you why you did not try Bay Chaleurs, and you put the question, "Did I say I did not go into Bay Chaleurs?"-A. I did not understand you said Bay Chaleurs.

Q. I said Bay Chaleurs.-A. I never was in Bay Chaleurs except

once.

Q. Why did you put the question to me?-A. I never was in Bay Chaleurs but once.

Q. Will you not answer that question?-A. I do not know what you mean. I cannot answer if I do not know what you mean.

Q. You did not go into Bay Chaleurs that year?-A. No.

Q. Why did you not?—A. Because I found mackerel enough without going there.

Q. You are sure about that?-A. Of course, I am sure about that. Q. You think you won't deviate from that statement? I have asked you why you did not go into Bay Chaleurs when you only got 180 barrels at Magdalen Islands, which is not a full fare, and you have given to me the extraordinary answer that it was because you had mack. erel enough where you were.-A. We got enough.

Q. How do you reconcile that with the fact that you did not get a full fare?-A. I don't know what you mean.

Q. I asked you why, instead of going home with 180 barrels, which, you say, was not a full fare, you did not go to Bay Chaleurs, and you gave as a reason that you got plenty of mackerel where you were?—A. Did I not tell you we spoke vessels which came from there, and they said there was no mackerel.

Q. So far from that, you gave as a reason for not trying there, that you had plenty of mackerel where you were?—A. If I did not, I am mistaken. I told you we spoke vessels coming from Prince Edward Island and nor'ard.

Q. Then some of the vessels came from Bay Chaleurs ?-A. I told you they came from all over the bay.

Q. Did they come from Bay Chaleurs ?-A. I don't say from Bay Chaleurs, but from the nor'ard. Vessels seldom go to Bay Chaleurs. Q. As you were going to Magdalen Islands you would pass Prince Edward Island, after going through the Gut of Canso?-A. We ran about half-way from Prince Edward Island and Cape Breton.

Q. After you went through Canso, you ran right by Prince Edward Island-A. Yes; by the island, but a good way off.

Q. As you were going by, why did you not try Prince Edward Island before you went to Magdalen Islands?-A. Because there are better fish at Magdalen Islands. I would not take the mackerel at Prince Edward Island, because they are poor, nasty trash you get. I never saw any good mackerel caught there in my life.

Q. Then, really, the reason why you did not try at Prince Edward Island was that you were well acquainted with the fish caught there, and they were poor trash?-A. I am well acquainted with the fish caught there. I have seen them and caught them.

Q. You are sure you would not catch Prince Edward Island mackerel at all?—A. I would not if I could get any anywhere else.

Q. They are poor, miserable trash?-A. They are generally poor trash you get there-small, poor mackerel.

Q. How often have you fished in Prince Edward Island waters within three miles of the shore ?-A. I have not fished there much.

Q. Then you were talking about something you know nothing about.

Why do you slander the poor fish if you have not gone and made their acquaintance?-A. I guess the fish don't know what I am saying.

Q. Unless you were down and saw them why should you slander the fish? A. As a general thing the mackerel caught off Prince Edward Island are hardly worth carrying home. Another thing is, that the boat fishermen which catch the mackerel there did not know what mackerel was before we went there.

Q. Was it because they did not know what mackerel was that a poor class of fish came in there?—A. They did not know what mackerel was when I first went into the bay, or whether they should take them by the head or tail.

Q. They were such a poor class of fish-A. They did not know mackerel from cod when I first fished there.

Q. Did you stay sufficiently long to instruct them in the different methods of taking fish?-A. I did not; but our people have instructed them how to catch the fish and dress them.

Q. Consequently a better class of fish are now on the shores ?—A. There has been a poor class of fish there.

Q. What has the intelligence of the islanders to do with the character of the fish?-A. They did not know anything about fishing before we went there. That has nothing to do, of course, with the character

of the fish.

Q. Has the character of the fish improved as the people have improved in knowledge ?-A. They don't know whether they are catching poor or fat fish.

Q. Are no good mackerel taken at the island at all?—A. I don't say there never were any good mackerel taken there, but that as a general thing the mackerel are poor, miserable trash. That is the idea about it.

Q. Are the mackerel taken at Prince Edward Island as late as September and October poor trash also ?-A. They are not so bad as in the summer time.

Q. Are they poor or good mackerel ?-A. Not generally so poor, because they come from the north and strike there, and those which come from the north are better mackerel.

Q. Spring mackerel are poorer than fall mackerel ?-A. I am talking about summer mackerel. One mackerel caught at Magdalen Islands is worth three of those caught at Prince Edward Island.

Q. You say that mackerel caught in September and October off the coast of Prince Edward Island are poor trash ?-A. I say not always, not every year. Some years they are poor trash and some years they

are not so.

Q. Is that not the case on all coasts?-A. No.

Q. Are Magdalen Island mackerel never poor trash ?-A. Mackerel have been poor in the bay for the last five or six years-all over the bay. Q. They are poor mackerel ?-A. Poor to what they were a number of years ago.

Q. Do you mean poor in quality or few in number?-A. Poor in quality.

Q. I understand you that spring mackerel coming into Magdalen Islands are equal to October mackerel at Prince Edward Island?—A. No, I don't say any such thing.

Q. I asked you if spring mackerel were always poor, and I understood you to say that the mackerel at Magdalen Islands were not.-A. Spring mackerel are poor everywhere.

Q. Are not the fall mackerel at Prince Edward Island just as good as the fall mackerel at Magdalen Islands?—A. They are not.

Q. Do you know that of your own knowledge?-A. Yes.

Q. From having fished?-A. Yes. They are better and bigger mackerel at Magdalen Islands.

Q. Where did you fish in Prince Edward Island waters ?-A. I fished all round the island.

Q. Close inshore ?-A. No.

Q. You don't know anything about the inshore fishery ?-A. I never saw any mackerel inshore.

Q. Have you gone in and tried?-A. Yes.

Q. When did you try?—A. I tried the last year I was in the bay; I tried close inshore and everywhere.

Q. That was in 1876 ?—A. Yes.

Q. During any other year did you fish inshore at Prince Edward Island?-A. I would have taken them anywhere, because we could not get them.

Q. In 1876 you did go inshore and try?—A. Yes; we were inshore and tried.

Q. At what part of the island?-A. We tried on the south side and north side of the island.

Q. Tell me the places.-A. One place we tried was off Souris Head. Q. That is near the north of the island?-A. It is at the south part of the island.

Q. How far from the shore?-A. Perhaps a couple of miles out.
Q. And you could not get any ?-A. We never caught any.
Q. Did you try round the bight of the island?—A. We did not.
Q. Did you ever try there?-A. Yes.

Q. What year?—A. I cannot tell you what year; I tried a number of times. I never got any to speak of.

Q. Did you see boats fishing there?-A. Yes.

Q. Were they catching fish when you could not get any ?-A. Sometimes they would be catching a few, and sometimes not.

Q. Off Souris Head last year, did you see many boats fishing?—A. Yes; we ran from East Point to Malpeque, and we saw boats all the way up and down the shore, from three to ten miles out.

Q. Were they catching any fish?-A. Some were catching a few and some were not catching any.

Q. As a rule, the fishing was a failure?—A. As a rule, they were not catching many. We hove to, but caught none, and we went on to Malpeque.

Q. Was that the time you were told there had been plenty there the day before?-A. They told me that one year. That was on the south side of the island.

Q. But when you went there you could not get any?-A. We could not get any.

Q. You did not hear that last year there were great numbers of mackerel round Prince Edward Island coast ?-A. We did not hear it, nor see them anywhere.

Q. Did you get any out in the gulf beyond three miles from shore last year?-A. What we got were got at Magdalen Islands, all but 20 barrels.

Q. Where did you get those 20 barrels ?-A. Off East Point.

Q. Close inshore?-A. No; they were taken on a shallow place, which we call 6 or 8 miles out.

Q. Within three miles of the shore did you get any last year?-A. Nothing to speak of; one or two barrels altogether.

Q. About how much of the whole catch did you get inshore last year?-A. I should say one-eighth part.

Q. Don't you think that is too high an average?—A. I think it is fully high enough.

Q. Did you catch your fish inshore at Magdalen Islands?-A. Some inshore and some out.

Q. How many inshore?-A. Perhaps one third we caught inshore, within three miles.

Q. Of the 20 barrels what proportion did you catch inshore?—A. Of the 20 barrels we caught the whole of them at a shallow place, which we call 6 or 8 miles out. Whether it is so I don't know.

Q. You did not catch one barrel of those 20 barrels within three miles of the shore ?-A. No.

Q. You caught one-third of the 120 barrels inshore at the Magdalen Islands?-A. About one-eighth.

Q. You said one-third?—A. I might have said one third—I meant one-eighth.

Q. Were you correct in saying you caught one-third inshore ?-A. If I said one-third let it go so. It does not make any difference whether we got one-third, one-half, or the whole inshore there.

Q. How many of the 120 barrels did you catch inshore at the Magdalen Islands?-A. If I told you one-third it is all right.

Q. Although you said just now it was a mistake, and it was one-eighth and not one-third. Don't you think you caught more than one-third inshore?-A. I don't think anything about it.

Q. Why?-A. Because I don't care whether I caught them inshore or out. At the Magdalen Islands it does not make any difference whether I got one-third inshore or one-third offshore.

Q. But it may make a good deal of difference in regard to telling the truth-A. I am telling the truth as near as I can.

Q. Which is the truth, one-eighth or one-third?-A. You may call it one-third.

Q. Do you say one-eighth or one-third ?-A. I tell you one-third. Q. Is that correct?-A. It is correct.

Q. Why did you say one-third was a mistake?-A. I thought I said one-eighth at the time; but you said that I said one-third.

Q. Because you said one-third you are going to stick to it? A. Yes. Q. Speaking of one-eighth, will you tell me, suppose you got 100 barrels of fish, how many barrels one-eighth would be?-A. It would be one-eighth of 100 barrels.

Q. How many would that be?-A. Eight barrels out of 100, of course. Q. When you went down to Prince Edward Island, once in a while, you gave them some bait out of pure philanthropy. At all events you gave away bait?-A. Yes; I gave away all I had to them; I never sold any.

Q. You kept clear of the inshore because the cutters were there at times?-A. While I was a skipper I never saw any cutters except one year.

Q. What year was that?-A. The year I was on the Phoenix, 1865 or 1866. They were Canadian cutters. That was the only time I saw them while I was skipper. I saw cutters there while I was a hand.

Q. You are sure you were in the Phoenix?-A. I am pretty certain I

was.

Q. In 1866 and 1867 I understood you were in the Martha A. Porter! -A. I cannot be sure about the cutters; I only saw one cutter there while I was skipper.