Q. Can you tell the Commission what was the vessel on which you were when you saw the cutters?-A. I was thinking I was on the Phoenix. While skipper, I never saw any except a Canadian cutter, and she was up to the nor'ard where we caught our mackerel.

Q. Did you take out no license the year you saw the cutters ?-A. I never took out a license.

Q. Having no license, did you keep clear of the inshore fishing?—A. We caught mackerel off Bonaventure and Gaspé.

Q. You said "broad out."-A. I mean from 12 to 15 miles off. Q. You did not attempt to go inshore?-A. No, because the Canadian cutters would not let us go inshore if we had wanted to do so.

Q. In 1867, what vessel did you command?-A. The Martha A. Porter. Q. Were you in the gulf that year?-A. Yes.

Q. You are sure of that?-A. Yes.

Q. How many barrels did you take that season ?-A. 120 barrels.

Q. Did you see any of the cutters that season?-A. No, I did not; I don't recollect that I did. I don't know that there were cutters that year. I think there were licenses that year.

Q. In 1865, you commanded the Martha A. Porter and were in the gulf fishing?-A. I was in the Martha A. Porter three years.

Q. Did you state you were in 1865 fishing in the gulf?-A. I think I did.

Q. Is it correct?-A. I think it is.

Q. Have you any doubt about it?—A. No.

Q. Then you swear positively that in 1865 you were in the gulf commanding the Martha A. Porter?-A. Yes, I am positive in 1865.

Q. How many barrels did you catch that season ?-A. I think it was 120 barrels I stated.

Q. Was the quantity 120 barrels ?—A. I might have said 120 or 170 barrels; I have forgotten.

Q. State now what is the fact.-A. One hundred and seventy barrels. Q. Why did you think it was 120 barrels ?-A. I had kind of forgotten, for you have got me mixed. It was 170 barrels.

Q. Are you sure it was 170 barrels ?-A. Yes, I am sure.

Q. Have you had figures put down on paper by which you are guid ing yourself?-A. No.

Q. Why did you say you had forgotten whether you had stated 120 or 170 barrels ?-A. You have been bothering me so.

Q. In 1866, where were you?-A. I was in the Martha A. Porter.
Q. Where; in the gulf?-A. I was at the George's that year.

Q. In 1867, you were in the gulf in the Martha A. Porter?-A. In 1865, 1866, and 1867 I was in the Martha A. Porter.

Q. In 1866, you were at the George's?-A. I think I was.

Q. By saying that you think, do you wish the Commission to understand you are not quite sure about it, or do you swear that it is the fact?-A. I say I was on the George's.

Q. How many years were you on the George's?-A. Two years.

Q. After being in the bay in 1865, you were at the George's the two following years ?-A. Yes.

Q. That places you on the George's in 1866 and 1867 ?-A. Yes.
Q. Are you sure about that?-A. I am pretty sure about it.
Q. You are sure about it?-A. Yes.

Q. What made you swear just now to me, and one hour ago to Mr. Foster, that in 1867 you were in the gulf?-A. I don't think I did.

Q. If you did, it is all wrong, I suppose. You have no accurate idea about dates or figures?-A. Why, I give you it as straight as I can.

Q. Then it is all wrong, that in 1867 you were in the gulf and caught 170 barrels of fish?—A. I don't say it is all wrong. In 1865 I was in the gulf.

Q. How many did you get then?-A. I have stated 120 or 170 barrels. Q. I don't care what you have stated; I want to know what you caught in 1865.-A. I think 120 barrels.

Q. Think it over whether in 1865 you caught 120 barrels ?—A. I tell you 120 barrels.

Q. You are sure about that?-A. I am pretty sure.

Q. Then if, in answer to Mr. Foster, you swore you took 170 barrels, it was an entire mistake. You have no doubt now it was 120 barrels ?— A. That is what I thought we got in 1865, 120 barrels.

Q. Why did you say you did not know whether the quantity was 120 or 170 barrels ?-A. You are getting me mixed.

Q. During the time you commanded the Martha A. Porte, did you not take out a license?-A. No. I never took out a license in my life. Q. Was any person else besides yourself captain of her at any time during the years 1865, 1866, and 1867?-A. No.

Q. Do I understand that no license could be taken out for her with out your knowledge?-A. I don't think it could.

Q. You would be the party to pay the money?-A. Certainly. Q. Do you know how the licenses were taken out?-A. I do not. Q. Do you know how much was paid per ton?-A. No. It is some. thing I had nothing to do with.

Q. You never took out a license at all?—A. No. I never took out a license.

Q. During 1866 and 1867, when in the bay, as you had no license, you would take care that you did not go within the three-mile limit?—A. We could fish as well as ever we could if there were any fish to catch. Q. You were not afraid ?—A. We were not afraid of the cutters. Q. Why did you not take out a license?-A. Because I did not want to take one out. I went to fish at Magdalen Islands.

Q. You did not intend to fish around Prince Edward Island?—A. I did not see any cutters. I could not say positively whether there were cutters in the bay that year or not. I don't recollect seeing any.

Q. You swear positively that no license was taken out by you?—A. No license was taken out by me.

Q. You swear positively that in 1867 you were not in the bay at all, and you were on the Georges -A. Yes.

Q. About that you cannot be mistaken. You recollect being in the gulf in 1865 and taking 120 barrels. You swear positively that the next two years you were on the Georges?-A. Yes; I was on the Georges. Q. You swear positively you were not in the gulf at all those years?A. Yes.

Q. Can you be mistaken about that?-A. I don't think I can.

Q. How do you account for swearing, in answer to Mr. Foster, that you were in the gulf in 1867, and that you took, I think, 120 barrels A. I don't think I did say that.

Q. Now, that I tell you you did, are you going to stick to it?-A. I think I was on the Georges those two years.

Q. Have you any doubt about it?-A. I have no doubt but that I was. Q. If there is any mistake about that, your memory is all gone?-A. My memory is not all gone yet; I guess I can stand it a little while longer.

Q. I understand you that in 1865 you are sure you were in the bay

and got 120 or 170 barrels, and the next two years, when commanding the Martha A. Porter, you were on the Georges ?-A. Yes.

Q. Were you more than two years on the Georges Banks in the Martha A. Porter?-A. When in the Martha A. Porter, in 1865, I was on the Georges, because I did not go to the bay until July. I was on the Georges in 1866 and 1867.

Q. You were not in the bay at all in 1866 ?—A. No.

Q. Nor in 1867 ?—No.

Q. You are sure about that?-A. Yes.

Q. Then there were three years, one after the other, you were on the Georges in the Martha A. Porter, that is the early part of 1865 and 1866 and 1867 -A. Yes.

Q. It is then an entire blunder if you told Mr. Foster you were in the bay in 1867 in the Martha A. Porter ?—A. It is a mistake if I told him

So.

Q. In 1869 you were on the Georges. In 1870 you were on the Pho. nix in the gulf, and got 120 barrels. Is that right?—A. Yes.

Q. How did it happen that you said, when Mr. Foster was examining you, that in 1865 you caught 180 barrels, and then you put it at 170, and now in answer to me you swear positively you caught 120 barrels ?— A. I got mixed. I knew there were 120 barrels somewhere.

Q. Nobody mixed you about 1865; it was your own deliberate statement.-A. Well, I know; I was thinking of the Phoenix when you were asking me about the Martha A. Porter.

Q. In 1865 how many barrels did you catch ?—A. 170 barrels.
Q. Of that you are quite sure?—A. That I am sure of.

Q. Why was it you told me the quantity was 120 barrels ?-A. I tell you I got mixed up about the Phoenix and the Martha A. Porter because the year afterward I was in the Phoenix. I was in the Martha A. Porter three years and in the Phoenix three years. I took the Phoenix trip for one of the Martha A. Porter trips.

Q. There is a difference of ideas?-A. I know that.

Q. Have you any explanation to offer as to your swearing at one time that in 1867 you were in the gulf and now swearing you were not ?—A. I said I was not.

Q. You have no explanation to offer for swearing you were ?—A. I think I was two years at the Georges.

Q. You have no explanation to offer?-A. No.

Q. In 1870, when you took 120 barrels or 170 barrels off Magdalen Islands, did you fish anywhere else; and if so, where? That was in the Phoenix.-A. Yes; we fished up West Cape, I mean on the west shore, off Bonaventure and Gaspé.

Q. What did you get there?-A. We got mackerel there-part of them.

Q. How many did you get?-A. At the time we fished there, I think 180 barrels.

Q. Was that in 1870-A. I think it was.

Q. You got those up at Gaspé and Bonaventure?-A. Gaspé, Bonaventure, Pigeon Hill, and along on that coast. I don't say we caught them all off Gaspé.

Q. Pigeon Hill is on the New Brunswick shore, on the southern shore of Bay Chaleurs?-A. It is on the southern shore of Bay Chaleurs on the western side. It is a few miles this side of Point Miscou.

Q. That would be on the shore of New Brunswick, not in the bay?A. I was not in Bay Chaleurs except once in my life.

Q. Off Gaspé, how near the shore did you get them?-A. From 12 to 15 miles off.

Q. Not inshore at all?-A. We did not catch any mackerel inshore that year. The Canadian cutters were round there and were cruising up and down at the time, and if there had been any mackerel there we could not have gone inshore.

Q. That is the reason why you did not try inshore?-A. Of course, it was one reason, because the cutters were cruising up and down and we could not try.

Q. In fact, you did not attempt to go inshore to fish that year?— A. We did not catch any inshore.

Q. Did you try?—A. I don't think we did. We might have hove to inshore and tried. I cannot be positive that we did not heave to inshore and try for mackerel, but we never caught any inshore. The mackerel were off shore that year.

Q. Do you mean that was unusual?-A. I don't mean it is unusual. The mackerel were off shore and went out of the bay early. None were caught there after 1st October.

Q. Do mackerel ever go inshore there?-A. I suppose they do, and go up Bay Chaleurs sometimes.

Q. Do they ever go within three miles of land?-A. Yes.

Q. Is there good fishing as a rule within three miles of shore ?—A. I don't know. I think it is likely that there is sometimes good fishing within three miles of the shore.

Q. Are you sure what vessel you commanded in 1870 ?-A. It was the Carleton.

Q. You are sure of that?-A. Yes.

Q. Did you not state that you commanded the Phoenix in 1870 ?—A. I mean the Phoenix.

Q. Now, will you swear positively that in 1870 you commanded the Phoenix-A. Yes, sir, I will.

Q. Will you swear positively that you got 180 barrels of mackerel off Bonaventure, as you call it? A. Yes.

Q. Did you say that you sailed from the Strait of Canso to Bonaventure?-A. We ran up the island and tried there.

Q. And you did not go to the Magdalen Islands?-A. O, yes; we did.

Q. Did you go to the Magdalen Islands, and fail, and then go on to Bonaventure?-A. We tried off the island and North Cape, and then ran across to the Magdalen Islands. We did not find mackerel there, and we then ran across to Bonaventure from the Magdalen Islands.

Q. And did you get the fish there?-A. The most of them we did. Q. Did you not, in answer to Mr. Foster, state that on that trip you got either 120 barrels or 170 barrels off the Magdalen Islands? And now you swear positively that you caught about 180 barrels, and that you did not get any at the Magdalen Islands, but that you got them somewhere off Bonaventure.-A. No; I do not think that I did.

(Statement of witness on this point during examination-in-chief was here read.)

Q. How do you reconcile those two statements?-A. I told him that we caught some at the Magdalen Islands and some at Bonaventure. Q. So that the statement which you made to Mr. Foster, according to your present statement, is utterly untrue; and, instead of catching 120 or 170 barrels at the Magdalen Islands, as you told Mr. Foster, you caught absolutely none at the Magdalen Islands, but all at Bonaventure.

You are all astray about this evidence, are you not? Did you ever hear of the Reciprocity Treaty ?-A. What is that?

Q. Did you ever hear of that treaty ?-A. I do not know as I understand what you mean.

Q. Did you ever hear of the Washington Treaty? You have no idea as to when the Reciprocity Treaty began or ended, or of anything of that sort -A. No; I have not.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. During how many years were you in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in command of the Martha A. Porter ?-A. Three.

Q. Do you mean in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. No. It was one year that I was in the gulf in her.

Q. You were only one year in command of the Martha A. Porter previous to the years when you went cod-fishing?-A. Yes.

No. 5.

Capt. NATHANIEL E. ATWOOD, manufacturer of cod liver oil, and formerly a fisherman, of Provincetown, Mass., was called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined.

By Mr. Foster:

Question. You told me, I think, that you were 70 years old last Saturday?-Answer. This was the case last Thursday.

Q. Have you been for a large part of your life a fisherman?-A. Yes. Q. And also a naturalist; you have studied the habits of fishes?—A. I have to some extent; I hoped to do something for the advantage of science in that direction.

Q. You have been a member of the house of representatives of Massachusetts-A. Yes; in 1857 and 1858.

Q. And also a member of the senate of the same State?-A. Yes; in 1869, 1870, and 1871.

Q. I think that you gave a course of lectures, 12 in number, before the Lowell Institute in Boston, some years ago, on the habits of fishes?— A. Yes.

Q. When did you first come to the Gulf of St. Lawrence to fish ?—A. I came to this gulf in 1824, in the schooner Independence, for the purpose of catching codfish.

Q. And for what purpose did you then catch mackerel ?-A. Wholly for bait.

Q. During what years were you cod-fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. I went there again in 1825 in the schooner Independence, and in 1828 I was there in the schooner Missouri.

Q. When did the mackerel fishery in the Gulf of St. Lawrence begin, as far as you know?-A. I have no knowledge of any vessel having come to the gulf for mackerel, although I have been told that probably some did come previously, until 1834, when I was fishing for mackerel on our own coast. Three vessels then went from our place, and three also from another place in the States, I am informed, to the gulf for mackerel. They met with good success, got full cargoes, and returned in a very short time.

Q. When did you first fish for mackerel in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. The next year, 1835.

Q. And during how many years have you been fishing for mackerel in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. I made six trips during as many sea

sons.