Q. What years were these?-A. I was there in 1835 and 1836, and again in 1838, 1841, 1842, and 1851.

Q. When did you go there first as captain ?-A. I was captain-that is, my name was so mentioned in the papers-first in 1842. My brother acted as captain other years. We were together, and together we owned the vessel.

Q. You and your brother were the owners?-A. Yes; sometimes he and sometimes I was master.

Q. During the years when you fished for mackerel in the gulf, where did you fish for them?-A. In 1842 I was first master, and in 1835 I first came to the gulf for mackerel. When we arrived there we could hear of no mackerel anywhere. We went toward the Magdalen Islands, and about eight miles off from them to the southwest we got a large number of mackerel the first day we were there. This induced us to fish in that vicinity, and we fished between that and the West Head of the Islands, as we call it, or Deadman's Island, as it is sometimes called.

Q. Is that part of the Magdalen Islands?-A. Yes; it is the west end of them. We fished there all that trip, and the result was that we got about 180 barrels, speaking in round numbers. The crew received a large share, and did much better than those who fished to the westward that season.

Q. Where did you fish during the remainder of the six years?—A. The next year, 1836, was my second year there at the Magdalen Islands, I having done so well there the years previous. I want it to be understood that I was in a small vessel with a small crew.

Q. Perhaps you will give the tonnage and the number of the crew?A. Her tonnage was 59, with the then reckoning, but now it would be called less than 40. We went direct that year to the Magdalen Islands, and we found that there had been some mackerel caught there, but none within a few days of that period; and as we had heard that mackerel were sometimes taken at Newfoundland, we bore up and went over there. The next day after our arrival we tried near Cape St. George, but though we tried all day, we never saw one, and so we returned to the Magdalen Islands, and remained there during the fishing term until we obtained a full cargo-225 barrels. We afterward proceeded westward, and found that vessels which had been fishing about Prince Edward Island, and further up on Bradley Bank and elsewhere, had done better than that; but we were satisfied; our voyage suited us, and we had got all we wanted.

Q. What did you do the next year?-A. The next year my brother and I bought a little vessel and fished around home, and we finally con cluded to go to the Bay of St. Lawrence. We did so, and stopped there some six weeks.

Q. When was that?-A. In 1838. We stopped only six weeks, and we got only about twenty barrels.

Q. Where?-A. We were at the Magdalen Islands all the time. We had poor sails and a poor vessel, and we found it much safer about the Magdalen Islands. We always considered it safer than in the bight of Prince Edward Island.

Q. And twenty barrels were all that you got that year?-A. Yes. We came home about the 20th of September. We went to the bay in August, and we remained there, I think, about six weeks.

Q. What did you do the next year?-A. The next year, when I went to the bay, was in 1841.

Q. Where were you during the intervening years?-A. In 1839 I

went in my own vessel, the Lucy Mary-which was the one in which I first went to the bay-to the Grand Bank. Mackerel were scarce, and the prospect was discouraging, so I went cod-fishing, curing the fish myself. I then hauled the vessel up and did not go for mackerel until 1840. I did not then go to the Grand Bank, and having no fish to cure I had to go mackereling somewhere. There was at the time no encouragement to fish for mackerel, either on our coast or in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and as people had told me stories about mackerel being found at the Azores, I was induced to fit out and go there.

Q. Did you get any mackerel at the Azores ?-A. No.

Q. What did you do the next year?-A. I went again to the Gulf of St. Lawrence in 1841, when we fished off the Magdalen Islands. We got about 100 barrels of very excellent mackerel. They were about all number ones, I think; there were very few number twos. The next year I also went in the same Lucy Mary, to the Gulf of St. Lawrence, fishing off the Magdalen Islands. . I was in the bay in 1841 and 1842. We staid there until the end of the season, but secured only 60 barrels. I was then master-that is, my brother was not with me, and I was master of the vessel. I went home with 60 barrels. This was my experience in the Gulf of St. Lawrence up to 1842. I was there since in 1851, when I was in a schooner called the William Gray, 58 tons. She was a small and dull-sailing vessel. I thought we would be much safer off the Magdalen Islands, and so I went there as I had done during previous years. I staid there until the middle of September, but was not very successful, getting only 90 barrels; so I concluded to go over to Prince Edward Island and try there. I did so, and the next day after my arrival I found that I was in more danger at this place than at the Magdalen Islands, for I was that day cast away, and I lost my vessel.

Q. When was this?-A. In 1851. I was cast away on Fish Island, at the entrance to Malpeque Harbor.

Q. Was this in the great gale, or previously?-A. It was two weeks before the great gale. I 'cleared up my wreck, saved what I could, took the mackerel out and shipped for home, going on board of another vessel. I was off the mouth of St. Peter's Harbor when the great gale came on, and we were then cast away again. So I was cast away twice in a fortnight. This seemed to prove, to my mind, that Prince Edward Island was more dangerous than the Magdalen Islands.

Q. You speak of fishing at the Magdalen Islands being safer than at Prince Edward Island; explain why it is that you think so.-A. Sup. pose we were at the Magdalen Islands and it looks stormy. If the wind is blowing on shore where we are, we just run round to the other side of the islands and anchor under the lee. If the wind blows up and it be. comes stormy, we are there very comfortable, and night or day we hold ourselves in readiness to get under way and get to the other side again, in case the wind should happen to change. Thus I have been round and round the islands, time and time again.

Q. Are the Magdalen Islands regarded by the American mackerel fishermen as a safe place?-A. Yes, I think so.

Q. And as safe as any in the gulf?-A. I think so; to a person well acquainted with them, they are considered as safe as any part of the gulf, and I consider them, for my part, safer. I do not know that everybody is of the same opinion, but I think this would be the case if they are thoroughly acquainted with the matter.

Q. Did you ever catch mackerel, and, if so, how many, within three miles of the shore in the Gulf of the St. Lawrence, elsewhere than around the Magdalen Islands?-A. Yes.

Q. How many did you so catch?-A. During my first year in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, when we got 180 barrels, we fished at the west end of the Magdalen Islands, and when we set out to go home, the wind freshened from the southward, and we struck in somewhere near St. Peter's Sandhills, as we called the place, and while reefing the foresail, we hove the vessel to, and I threw out a few shovels full of bait. Mackerel came up, and seemed to be very abundant, but we only caught about half a barrel. Night came on just as soon as the foresail was reefed, and hoisting it up, we hauled in the hand-lines instead of anchoring there, and went about along shore, hove to and let the vessel drift off. Next day we got back to Pleasant Bay, Magdalen Islands. That was all we got there that voyage, and we never fished anywhere, or caught any mackerel on the Prince Edward Island side, or anywhere within the restricted limits, until 1842. During that year I was passing Port Hood late in the afternoon-it was just nightfall-when I hove to and tried the school, and I do not think that I was at the time three miles offshore. I did not fish there over a day, and we obtained a few mackerel, perhaps six or seven barrels. When I came to talk with the crew, some said we were six miles offshore, and some four miles, and so on; but I will tell you what I thought about it: This was, that if a cutter came along he would take me, so I considered that I did not need to stay there. Soon after dark I discovered a vessel running down apparenty towards the Strait of Canso, and hauling up for us. I was afraid she was a cutter, and I was then very sorry that I had obtained any mackerel there. She happened, however, not to be a cutter, and I got away the next day. This was all the mackerel I ever caught within the three-mile line.

Q. Since you ceased fishing for mackerel in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, have you fished for mackerel anywhere?-A. O, yes; some, though not a great deal. I fished some on our coast.

Q. Before I make any general inquiries on that subject, I wish you to make a statement, if you have prepared such a one, as to the whole number of mackerel-fishing vessels which have gone from Provincetown, where you reside, to the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and their catch since 1870.-A. Going back to 1870, we had that year 41 vessels engaged in mackerel-fishing, not one of which went into the gulf. They all fished on our coast. The aggregate quantity of mackerel which they all packed was 37,552 barrels. In 1871, we had still 41 vessels, which still continued to fish on our coast, having done pretty well there the year before. None went to the gulf. The aggregate catch which these vessels packed amounted to 24,918 barrels. In 1872 we had 36 vessels, of which 3 went to the Gulf of St. Lawrence, leaving 33 fishing on our own coast. These 36 vessels packed out 16,303 bbls., and the 3 vessels which went to the gulf packed out 785 barrels, making an average, per vessel, of 261 barrels.

In 1873, when the Washington Treaty went into effect, as we intended going to the bay, having now no fear of the cutters, we enlarged our bay fleet, and so 6 went there that year instead of 3. Two of these 6, or one-third of them, were lost in the gale in which so many vessels were lost. The vessels lost were the schooner Helen M. Woodward, off the Magdalen Islands-the vessel was a total loss-and the Carrie P. Rich, off North Cape, Prince Edward Island, vessel and crew total loss. The latter went to the bay early in the year, and she had shipped some mackerel home before the gale took place. She was lost with all she had on board. The whole catch of these six vessels that year was 845 barrels. In 1873 we had 38 vessels, and their total catch was

15,772 barrels, including the 845 barrels mentioned. In 1874 we had 35 vessels engaged in the mackerel fishery, and they packed out 23,098 barrels. Three vessels went to the gulf, bringing home 590 barrels, which are included in the total catch of the 35 vessels, 23,098. In 1875 we had 37 vessels, which packed out 10,613 barrels. Two of them went to the gulf, and they brought home 270 barrels, which are included in the gross amount stated.

In 1876 we had 32 vessels, whose total catch was 16,150 barrels. Two of them went to the Gulf of St. Lawrence, bringing home 202 barrels, which are included in the 16,150. These totals make a grand total of 144,406 barrels, of which 2,692 were caught in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in 16 voyages, during the several years I have named. The average catch of these vessels since 1872, and since the fishery clause of the Washington Treaty went into effect, was 1463 barrels per vessel; and prior to that the average was 2613 barrels per vessel, in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

The

Q. What becomes of the mackerel in the winter? Does anybody know?—A. I can answer that very quickly as far as we know: they go away; but this does not answer the question, I am fully aware. mackerel are a very curious species of fish. They come on our coast in the early part of the season, and remain there throughout the summer; and when the water becomes chilly they go off into deeper water; but it is impossible for me or for anybody to tell where they go. In my opinion, however, they go off until they find the right temperature of water, and there I presume they remain until the following year, when they return in their annual migration.

Q. When and where do they first make their appearance in the spring off the coast of the United States?-A. I have had no practical experience in fishing for mackerel south of Cape Cod. My mackerel-fishing was carried on in the region of Cape Cod and in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. I know, however, from my own experience, that the farther south you are, the earlier in the year do the mackerel make their appearance. They appear, for instance, earlier off Cape Cod than in the Gulf of St. Lawrence; but I have never heard of any vessel going south for mackerel on our coast farther than Chincoteague Shoals, on the east coast of Virginia.

Q. How far is this point north or south of Norfolk?-A. It is a considerable distance north of Norfolk. I have heard of men going down off this point, but it is the most southern point where, to my knowledge, the mackerel fishery is prosecuted early in the season. Any number of vessels fish off Cape May early in the year, because the mackerel school at the mouth of Delaware Bay; and afterward the fish arrive off Sandy Hook at the entrance to the port of New York, which is another great mackerel-fishing place. They are taken off Long Island and afterward off Block Island. Mackerel fishers do not like to fish a great way from a harbor for fear of storm. Later the mackerel reach our bay north of Cape Cod, and in this manner they make their course northward.

Q. About what time do they reach Provincetown?-A. A few straggling specimens are sometimes taken with gill-nets, not with the hook, about the 10th of May. I have known them to be caught there as early as that or about the middle of May. Then we expect their number to increase before a great while, and I have seen them there in large quantities as early as the 20th of May. I have then gone out in my boat with a boy 14 years of age and caught with my nets over 2,050 during one night, and the next night we took, I think, 3,520.

By Hon. Mr. Kellogg:

Q. When was that?-A. In 1856, I think.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. Has there been good mackerel fishing at various points off the coast of the United States, say during the last ten years?-A. Oh, yes. It has been twenty years, however, since I participated in the mackerel fishery. During the last ten years the mode of fishing has changed, being entirely different from that formerly pursued. The mode of catching mackerel has changed more than once since I first went fishing.

Q. Explain.-A. In my boyhood when I caught my first mackerel nobody thought of jigging them. We then took them in the same way bluefish are caught. My first experience in mackerel fishing took place when I was a little boy. I went out with two old men. One of them fished in the stern of the boat, and when it did not sail fast enough the other and myself-I was eight years old at the time-had to row, in order, by the more rapid motion of the boat, to induce the fish to bite. They would not bite unless the line was towed. Two great long poles were run out, one just forward in such a manner that our vessel had the ap. pearance of a long armed spider. The poles were straight and one line was fastened at one part and another line on the end of the pole, in order to have them separated. This style of fishing continued until about the time when I began to go to sea. Jigging for mackerel then commenced, bait being thrown overboard and the fish being thus attracted along. side of the vessels, and it came into general use. The first year that I fished for mackerel on this coast was in 1826, and having changed from the laborious and exposed business of cod-fishing on the Labrador coast, I took a good deal of notice of what passed, and consequently I still remember a good deal about the voyage. We sailed from Provincetown on the 28th of June, and went down to a point some twenty leagues northeast of Cape Cod.

On the day following we saw one school of mackerel, and, getting into it, we threw out bait, and caught, well, some three or four barrels. That was the first school which we met with; and this happened on the 29th of June. It was the last school we saw until the 13th of September, my birthday; this was a very large school. In five weeks we caught 238 barrels of mackerel, and, although it was early in the season, still they packed very well. After they were packed we went out again and secured 250 barrels where we saw the school of mackerel on the 13th of September. Q. What is the present mode of catching mackerel ?-A. Now they carry a large seine, worth $1,000 or more, and have very large crews. Men go out from the seining-vessel in a boat, and shoot the seine-these seines are from 200 to 300 fathoms in length and from 20 to 25 fathoms in depth-around the school, and thus catch from 100 to 150 barrels at a time; this is the present mode of fishing. We have 30 mackerel fishing vessels which left Provincetown this year, being two less than last year, and one of them went to the Gulf of St. Lawrence. All of them carry seines.

Q. Do you know what success the one which came to the gulf bas had-A. No. I have not heard from her, though I called on her owners. I obtain my statistics personally from the owners and agents of the vessels.

Q. With purse-seines, of course it makes no difference whether the mackerel will take the bait or not?-A. No.

Q. A good many opinions have been expressed with regard to the throwing overboard of gurry, or the offal of mackerel. Does this, in