Q. Do you think it impossible that, with the facility of obtaining fresh bait on the coast of Newfoundland-do you think your bankers could not make three trips, considering the facility of getting the fresh bait, and the superiority of that to the salt bait?-A. The fresh is better than the salt, but I think they could not make three trips, or even two, with any degree of assurance. Those vessels that carried salt bait enough to get a full fare, and staid there and got a full fare, would be satisfied. I know a man, my own neighbor, who has two large vessels that he fitted with hand-lines, and the other he sent with trawls, depending upon going to Newfoundland for fresh bait.

Q. Don't all those vessels on the Grand Bank fish with trawls ?—A. No. We have forty-eight bankers engaged in that business this year. Thirty of them are engaged in trawl-fishing, and eighteen are hand-line fishing.

Q. You know that of your own knowledge?-A. I know that.

Q. Do you know it of your own knowledge?-A. I didn't watch them to see that there were no trawls, but I am just as well satisfied.

Q. Well, it is a novelty to me to hear that there is a single vessel car. rying on fishing on the Grand Banks unless by trawls.-A. Such is the fact that eighteen of these vessels go without trawls. This man owning these vessels expects two large ones to come home with full fares. He expects the trawling-vessel that has been twice to Newfoundland for bait to come home with a short fare. She was in at St. Peters on the 11th August and the 27th August, and on the 27th he wrote home that he hadn't any squid yet, but hoped to have some.

Q. Do I understand you to say that when an owner sends his vessel to the Grand Bank, with the privilege of going to the coast of New foundland for bait, he looks forward to her coming back with a short catch-A. With trawl?

Q. Well, that, as a matter of fact, when an owner sends his vessel to the Banks, with the privilege of calling in at Newfoundland for bait, he expects her to come back with a short catch?-A. No; I do not wish to be so understood. I wish to say that this man expects his hand-line vessels to do the best.

Q. Well, then, hand-line fishing is the most productive?-A. Taking them together as a whole, from the whole effect this year and last year, it has been the best. The hand-line has proved better than the trawl

on an average.

Q. Well, how is it, then, that this trawling is so generally adopted if the other is more productive?-A. If you will ask me why these 30 vessels are engaged for trawl-fishing, and why they do not altogether hook fish, I will tell you the reason. The vessel is owned by a certain man or a certain number of men. They ship a captain to go in her. May be he is going to run the whole voyage and hire the crew, with, at the most, one or two sharesmen or one and a half. Now, then, if he goes hand-lining, he has got to have perhaps ten dory-boats. You know what they are, and he has got to have every man capable of taking charge of that boat. When he anchors his vessel these boats go out in this, that, and every direction. But if he goes trawling, he only takes five boats. Those five boats are larger, and are capable of carrying two men. Now, if he gets five men that are qualified as skippers of those boats, able to handle them, he might put cheap green hands in the same boats. He gets a crew at a cheaper rate, and that is an inducement. The captain ships a cheaper crew.

Q. What is the difference between the wages paid to a trawling crew and a hand-line crew, in a vessel of fourteen hands?-A. There is con

siderable difference.

I don't know what they pay the men. Perhaps

some of them pay by the run.

Q. I don't want "perhaps."-A. Then I will say I don't know. Because I don't know what they give their men; I never inquired.

Q. Is it not extraordinary that you will state positively that the crews of those different vessels-one is cheaper than the other-when you really don't know what wages are paid ?—A. I don't know what wages are paid, but I know if you have men qualified for dories you will pay higher wages than when you can take a number of green hands. I know they take some green hands at a cheaper rate.

Q. At all events you admit that trawl-fishing is very much more productive than hook and line fishing ?-A. Well, it is productiveQ. Is it, or is it not, more productive?

Mr. DANA. Let the witness answer.

Mr. WHITEWAY. Is it more productive generally than hook and line?-A. Well, I should say yes, in some localities. But I have been talking about our vessels going to Newfoundland. I have stated, and so I believe, that it is no advantage to go there with trawls, and I have given my reasons. I have said also that on the coast of Massachusetts, when the trawl was introduced, those who used them made more successful fishing.

Q. Is the quantity of fish taken by means of the trawl greater—or, in other words, is the trawl more successful in taking fish than the hook and line?-A. I think it would be, with the same time of fishing.

Q. It is the same on the Banks, of course, as in Massachusetts Bay?— A. Well, I have stated that the schooner Emma Linwood has been there from the 11th to the 27th of August, and we do not know how much longer she is going to be there before getting bait.

Q. How do you know that?-A. I know when he was there, on the 11th, because I have got the captain's letter of the 11th. I have not got his letter of the 27th, in which he says he has not yet got bait, but I could have got it.

Q. You have taken a deep interest in this fishery question now before the Commission ?-A. Well, I do not know.

Q. You went to all the owners, you say, of the vessels in Provincetown who were carrying on the fishery on the Grand Banks?—A. Yes, sir.

Q. To ascertain as to the advantage of going to the coast of Newfoundland to obtain bait?-A. Well, I don't know that I can say just that, because I knew just as much about that before going to them. I went to the owners to see whether they preferred their going in, and how they felt about all these things.

Q. When did you go?-A. The date?

Q. About what date-A. All along August. Not every day, but several times. I went in the month of August and interviewed the owners of our vessels.

Q. Preparatory to coming here and giving evidence ?-A. Yes.
Q. You saw them all?-A. Every one.

Q. Have you a list of the names of the vessels?-A. I have brought a list of the names of the vessels that can be produced.

Q. Have you a list of the names of the owners?—A. No; I have not a list of the names of the owners.

Q. Can you give it ?-A. You take the names of the vessels and I will give you the names of the owners.

Q. I want a list of the owners of the vessels. Would you favor me with it A. I haven't it in my possession.

Q. Can you make it up from memory?-A. I could.
Q. I should like to have the names of these owners.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. Haven't I a list of the vessels and captains?-A. You haven't a list of the captains. You have a list of the vessels and their tonnage. All those that went to Newfoundland that we know of up to Septem. ber 1.

By Mr. Whiteway :

Q. I simply wanted to get a list of the vessels from Provincetown. There are only, I think-how many on the Banks -A. There are fortyeight.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. Those vessels are owned, some of them, in thirty-second parts?— A. In sixteenths and eighths.

Q. A good many men own them?-A. In the first place, here is an outfitter. He keeps a store.

By Mr. Whiteway:

Q. Confine yourself to the simple facts. These vessels you say are owned by several parties. They vary between what numbers of owners? -A. Many of those are owned in part by Boston owners.

Q. Each of those vessels is owned by a great number of parties?—A. Not all of them; some haven't many owners.

Q. Others have a great many?—A. Others quite a number.

Q. Varying between how many? Between sixteen and thirty-two?No; I won't say that. They vary between balf a dozen and sixteen, and some more than sixteen.

Q. Well, now, have you been to all those owners? You said you had been to the owners of those vessels. Have you been to all those owners? -A. No. Now I was careless when I made that statement. I should not have made that statement. I should have said the agents. There might be a hundred and fifty owners, some in Boston and some in New Orleans. If you will have the kindness to pardon me, we get accus tomed to speaking of the agents as the owners.

Q. You went down to the ships' husbands ?-A. Yes.

Q. Give the names of the agents.-A. What ship shall I give you? (It is agreed, to save time, witness shall furnish a list.)

Q. Now, do I understand you to say this, that all these agents expressed themselves opposed to the Grand Bank fishing-vessels going to the coast of Newfoundland for bait?-A. I do not wish to be understood to say that they all had conversation on that subject. Several of them did oppose it, and nobody, that I heard, approved of it as agents of the vessels. They appeared to think there was no advantage. They didn't all express themselves; several did. They talked to me and said we had rather our vessels did not go in.

Q. How many agents are there, in round numbers?-A. I suppose, perhaps, half as many agents as vessels.

Q. How many is that -A. 48; half of that would be 24. That is guess-work, however. It may not be more than 23.

Q. Now, how many of these 24 agents expressed themselves as opposed to the vessels going into Newfoundland for bait?-A. I do not rightly remember the number. I cannot say.

Q. You cannot answer. Can you tell approximately? I will ask you this: Can you name one individual who expressed himself as opposed

to those Bank-fishing vessels going into Newfoundland?-A. Henry Cook; he was one.

Q. How many vessels is he agent for ?-A. I think five.

Q. You don't remember the name of any other?—A. Yes, I do; Philip A. Waugh.

Q. Who else?-A. L. N. Payne.

Q. Is he here?-A. No; his brother is. When I speak of different persons as agents, I refer to those who act as such, and who gave me information. I do not know whose name may appear in the paper at the custom-house. Mr. Payne is one of a firm who are agents. Q. Is he here ?-A. No.

Q. Do you know of any other?-A. Francis Joseph.

Q. He told you the same thing? A. Yes. He is not here.

Q. Is there any other?-A. I don't think of any others-I don't think of any others I had any long conversation with.

Q. No, but I mean any others who told you this?—A. Well, I won't state any other names.

Q. You don't remember any other names than those four out of twenty-four?-A. I don't know about the twenty-four.

Q. Well, you say twenty-three or twenty-four?-A. I don't want to confine myself to twenty three or twenty-four, and I guess at that. Q. Well, out of all the agents. Some have four or five vessels ?—A.

Some.

Q. Those are the only ones you can remember as having so expressed themselves?-A. I don't remember any others that I had conversation with about that.

Q. In your conversation with them, you being strongly impressed with the objection to these vessels going into the coast of Newfound land for bait, did you not, in the first instance, tell them that such was the case, and impress them that such was the case?-A. I was not opposed to their going into Newfoundland for bait at all; not a bit of it. Q. But were you strongly impressed that going into the coast of Newfoundland was disadvantageous to them?-A. I thought it was, on the whole, with their mode of fishing.

Q. And you were strongly of that opinion?—A. That was my opin ion; I don't wish to deny it.

Q. You are looked upon in Provincetown as a very high authority in regard to fisheries ?-A. I don't know about that.

Q. You hold a high position there in connection with questions concerning the fisheries?—A. I have had some experience in fishing, and I don't know but that they give me a fair amount of respect.

Q. You are looked upon as a high authority there as regards fisheries-A. Well, I suppose so.

Q. What you state upon any point concerning the fisheries is almost conclusive in the minds of those to whom you are speaking?-A. Fishing from an industrial and commercial point of view is one thing, and from a natural history point of view is another thing.

Q. Has not your opinion great influence among the common people concerning the fisheries?-A. I guess I should have as much influence in those matters as almost anybody. I don't hold myself up to be more than other men. Men who own vessels and carry on fishing-I don't own vessels and don't carry on fishing-know more about the business commercially and practically than I do.

Q. What you say as regards questions concerning the fisheries is entitled to be received as the fact ?-A. You have asked me a question that I could not answer-I believe I did not answer it-as to how much

owners give their crews as wages. Now, there are men coming here who are owners of vessels at Provincetown, and who know how much they give the men.

Q. I suppose you are not prepared to say that your opinion on any question connected with the fisheries is not looked upon in Provincetown with great respect?-A. I don't want to give it out to the people that I know a great deal.

Q. But as a fact you do?-A. If they accord that to me I feel they have paid a compliment.

Q. They do accord it to you, and you feel it a compliment ?—A. If they accord it to me they exalt me.

Q. You are aware, from information, that a large number of American vessels fishing on the Grand Banks do go into the coast of Newfoundland to obtain bait?-A. Yes; I believe they do. I have had no personal participation in it.

Q. Did it never appear to you as singular that, if it was disadvantageous to the conduct of the fishery for them to do so, they should do so, and go on increasing in numbers ?-A. I know when those vessels go away they leave with the hope of finding squid on the Banks. In the event of their not finding them they necessarily go to Newfoundland for bait. It is only a few years since they began to go there.

Q. But is it not singular that they should, in such large numbers, go there, if it is disadvantageous for them to go there?-A. They won't prosecute it very long if it is so.

Q. You say the number has been increasing and the greatest number was there last year; if it was disadvantageous, was it not singular that they should so go there?-A. Looked at in that way it would be; but I have given the reasons why they go.

Q. You have given the reasons for forming your opinion ?—A. I have said that they get a cheaper crew, and hope to find bait ou the Banks.

Q. You have given reasons for your opinion?—A. Yes.

Q. But the practical effect is different from your theory or opinion. Is that the case?—A. It would seem so in that respect. I have stated what I conscientiously believe to be the cause of their going to Newfoundland-a cheaper crew and hope of getting squid on the Banks.

Q. You state that as your candid belief?—A. It is my candid belief that there lies the inducement.

Q. You have stated that you knew of only one man who had refitted his vessels off the coast of the Dominion and carried on the Bank fishery from thence. You referred to a man at St. Peter's?-A. Yes, loacted at St. Peter's.

Q. Who made an arrangement to send five vessels to the Grand Banks? Will you name the individual?-A. Henry Cook.

Q. In what year was that?—A. In 1874, I think. I am not positive.

Q. Are you not aware of any others?-A. I know of no others who have attempted that locating to carry on the Bank fishery.

Q. Have you heard of the American who has established a place of business at St. Mary's, on the south coast of Newfoundland, to carry on the Bank fishery?-A. No; I don't know who he is.

Q. There may be a great many so established without your knowing of them -A. There may be a great number. It is a large field.

Q. Have you ever heard of three so established at Magdalen Islands?— A. No; I don't know who they are. I know this much in regard to Magdalen Islands, that last year some persons went there and built a