Q. Although you admit that it is windier around the Magdalen Islands than it is elsewhere in the gulf, you still think that it is safer for vessels to be there than anywhere else in the gulf?-A. Yes.

Q. How do you account for that?-A. I was in the big gale of 1851 in the bay-in the bight of Prince Edward Island-and we then nearly lost the vessel and all hands; but if we had been at the time at the Magdalen Islands we could have hoisted the jib in no time and shifted around the islands and come to anchor.

Q. Was not this gale of 1851 an exceptional circumstance?—A. Yes. Q. Do you think that you would have been safe during that gale at the Magdalen Islands?-A. Yes; we could have laid under the lee of the islands.

Q. You think that you would there have been safe?-A. Yes; because the wind blew east all the time.

Q. Are not the Magdalen Islands low-lying islands, over which the wind blows?-A. They make a break water for us.

Q. Would it have been possible for you to have lain anywhere about the Magdalen Islands during that gale without being lost?-A. It would have been safe for us to have lain there.

Q. You think so?-A. Certainly.

Q. Which way was the wind blowing at the time?—A. About straight east at first; it then turned to the northeast and afterward to the northwest.

Q. Where about the Magdalen Islands would you have lain during that storm?-A. Under Cow Head, on the south west part of the islands. Q. Is that a high bluff?-A. It is quite high; it is high enough to afford shelter.

Q. And you still state that in your opinion the Magdalen Islands are safer than any other part of the gulf; is that the general opinion of navigators in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, or are you alone of that opinion! -A. I do not know about that, but this would be my opinion, if I was in the bay fishing I would prefer the Magdalen Islands to Prince Edward Island for fishing.

Q. Is that the general opinion?-A. I say I do not know of any body else's opinion, but it is mine.

Q. You have surely heard opinions regarding it. Is it not the general opinion that the neighborhood of the Magdalen Islands is a very dan gerous place?-A. As I said before, it is windier around these islands than in other parts of the gulf, but as regards the question of safety, fishermen would rather fish there than in any other part of the bay.

Q. Is it not the general opinion that the neighborhood of these islands is very unsafe?-A. The general opinion is that the bight of Prince Edward Island is the worst part of the bay, because if a northeast gale comes on while you are there you cannot get out.

Q. Are there not around the island Cascumpeque, Souris, and Georgetown Harbors?-A. I was never in Cascumpeque Harbor, but I was in Malpeque Harbor once, and I was glad to get out. The water was quite shoal.

Q. And you were never in Cascumpeque Harbor or Souris Harbor?— A. I was in Souris Harbor.

Q. Can you not run around the cape to the other side of the island and get under the lee as well as about the Magdalen Islands?—A. Yes, if you are fishing up that way, but I was fishing in the bight of the island.

Q. Why did you not run into one of the harbors?-A. The water is too shoal.

Q. Is Malpeque Harbor too shoal?-A. We think so in the event of a northeast storm.

Q. You state that Prince Edward Island is a much more dangerous place to fish at than the Magdalen Islands?-A. I do.

Q. And you state that this is the general opinion of all fishermen ?A. I do not know about that. I never inquired about it, but all the men I ever heard talk about it say they would rather fish at the Mag. dalen Islands than in any other part of the Bay of St. Lawrence.

Q. Why?-A. Because it is much easier to make shelter there than anywhere else in the gulf.

Q. Then you have talked over the matter with others?-A. That is my opinion too.

Q. You have then talked this matter over with other people?—A. No. Q. How then did they appear to state that?-A. In common conversation. One might ask where they preferred to fish in the bay, and they would reply that they would rather fish at the Magdalen Islands than anywhere else.

Q. Why?-A. Because we can make shelter and make slick there quicker than anywhere else in the bay-to make slick is to make smooth

water.

Q. And you can get smooth water at any time around the Magdalen Islands-A. As a rule we can. We can easily make slick there.

Q. And if you are fishing around Cape North, Prince Edward Island, can you not do the same thing?-A. Yes; but I never fished there a great deal for mackerel.

Q. And yet you say that it is a more dangerous fishing place than the Magdalen Islands?-A. I have fished in the bight of the island.

Q. I am speaking of North Cape or East Point?-A. Yes; you can make slick splendidly under West Cape.

Q. Where is West Cape ?-A. It is west of North Cape.

Q. You can get shelter there easily enough? A. Yes; and splendid shelter. I would have been glad to have reached that point during the great gale of 1851.

Q. Why do you say that this is a dangerous place if you can get smooth water there?-A. When we speak of the dangers incurred in mackerel fishing here, we refer to the bight of the island. My experience has been acquired there.

Q. And the only experience you have had there has been in the bight of the island; are there no harbors in the bight of the island?-A. Yes; there are Malpeque, Cascumpeque, and New London.

Q. And Georgetown?-A. That is on the south side of the island. Q. You never went into any of these harbors except Malpeque?—A. Yes; I was in Souris.

Q. And you never were at New London or Cascumpeque ?-A. That year we were not acquainted with them.

Q. Were you ever there when you were acquainted with them ?-A. No; I never was around the island but one year.

Q. Why, then, do you give it as your experience that this is a dangerous place?-A. As a man who is president of an insurance company, insuring Cape Ann vessels and that sort of thing, I have to keep myself posted on these matters.

Q. You do not then speak from your own experience?-A. That year's experience was enough for me. I have had vessels there during the last ten years.

Q. A great number of vessels were wrecked in the bay the year that you were there?-A. Yes.

Q. At the Magdalen Islands, as well as at Prince Edward Island?—A. I do not know of any having been then wrecked at the Magdalen Islands. Q. When did that gale take place?-A. On the 2d of October, 1851. Q. Was it not the reason why no vessels were then wrecked at the Magdalen Islands, because there were no vessels there at that time owing to the lateness of the season?-A. They fish at the Magdalen Islands as late as they do anywhere else in the gulf.

Q. Were you not at the Magdalen Islands that year?-A. No; not that trip, but I was there during the spring trip.

Q. When did you go there, in the spring?-A. About the 15th of June.

Q. When did you get your fare?-A. Along in August.

Q. Did you go home or transship?-A. We went home.

Q. And when did you get back to the gulf?-A. About the 5th of September.

Q. And on that occasion you did not go straight back to the Magdalen Islands?-A. No; we did not go there at all on the second trip.

Q. You made a good fare at the Magdalen Islands on your first trip!A. We did not catch any fish there on our first trip, in 1851.

Q. Did you not say that you went to the Magdalen Islands in the spring of the year, got a trip, and went back in August ?-A. No; I said that we went there on our first trip; we just touched at this place, and then went over to Bank Bradley.

Q. You could not get any fish at the Magdalen Islands on your first trip?—A. Yes; we only touched there.

Q. Have you not to pass Bank Bradley when you go to these islands?— A. No, nor any where nigh it. We went right straight there from the Gut of Canso.

Q. Did you go to the Magdalen Islands to fish?-A. We went there to look for fish.

Q. Did you try there for fish?-A. I think that we did.

Q. Have you any doubt about it?-A. I suppose that we did try there. We were on a fishing trip.

Q. Are you not sure about it?-A. This took place a good many years

ago.

Q. Do you really forget whether you tried there or not?—A. I do seem to forget whether we did or not. We were only there one day. Q. You went there to fish?—A. Yes.

Q. Would you have left the place if you had found fish there?A. No.

Q. Have you any doubt as to the fish being there?-A. I think that we tried there, and we could not find any, I have no doubt.

Q. You only staid one day there?-A. Yes; I think so.

Q. Have you any doubt about it? If you have forgotten, say so.—A. I do forget about the matter.

Q. Do you forget where you caught the fish at the Magdalen Islands!A. I know that we did not catch any fish there.

Q. You recollect that ?-A. Yes.

Q. But you do not recollect how long you staid there?-A. I recol· lect that we staid there a day or two.

Q. You got no fish there, and then you went to Bank Bradley?—A. Yes.

Q. Did you get a full fare then ?-A. We fished on Bank Bradley a spell, and then went north of Gaspé.

Q. How long did you fish on Bank Bradley?—A. I think until the middle of July.

Q. When did you go to the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. About the middle of June.

Q. Then you were fishing on Bank Bradley for a month ?-A. Very nearly-yes.

Q. Is Bank Bradley a large Bank?-A. I was never fishing there when a man. At the time I was merely a boy; I was 21 years old. Q. Whether a boy or a man, do you mean to say that you forget all about it?-A. I forget the particulars of the voyage.

Q. Can you tell me how many fish you caught, then, on Bank Bradley-A. No; I could not.

Q. In answer to Mr. Trescot, you gave us to understand that you got your fare there?-A. We also went up to Gaspé.

Q. You do not know how much you got on Bank Bradley ?-A. No. Q. Did you go to the Bay of Chaleurs?-A. I was never there in my life.

Q. Did you fish close to the shore off the Gaspé coast ?-A. We kept outside the limits, because a cutter was about there at the time.

Q. You wanted to go inshore, but you were afraid to do so ?—A. No; there were no fish inshore.

Q. Why did you say that you kept outside the limits because a cutter was there?-A. I said that we did not fish inshore because a cutter was there, and we did not care about being arrested.

Q. And you knew that there were no fish inshore ?-A. We never tried for fish inshore. There might have been fish in there for all I know. Q. Why did you say just now that you did not go in because there were no fish there ?-A. Because we never tried there, and consequently we did not know that there were fish there.

Q. And you did not try there because you were afraid of the cutter?— A. That is it exactly.

Q. Did you see vessels fishing in there when you were there?-A. No. Q. There were no fishing vessels, or boats, or anything of that kind there?-A. I never saw any.

Q. Where was this?-A. I think that it was some fifty or sixty miles above Gaspé.

Q. Then you must have been in the St. Lawrence River?-A. We were at the mouth of it.

Q. How far up the river did you go? Were you as far up as Point des Monts?-A. I do not remember.

Q. How far up the St. Lawrence did you go?-A. Fifty or sixty miles above Gaspé, I think.

Q. And all the time you kept from fifteen to sixteen miles off shore?— A. We were from ten to fifteen miles off.

Q. You were never nearer the shore than that?-A. We kept off shore all the time.

Q. Did you get a full fare up there?-A. No; I think that we got somewhere about 150 barrels there; and we obtained 400 barrels before we went home.

Q. When did you finish the trip?-A. I think somewhere about the 20th of August.

Q. When did you come back to the gulf?-A. I think we returned to the bay on the 5th of September.

Q. You did not go to the Magdalen Islands at all on that trip?— A. No.

Q. You never fished there before?-A. No.

Q. What part of the island did you fish?-A. From Malpeque to East Point. The balance we caught over on the Cape Breton side.

Q. Close inshore?-A. No; 10 or 15 miles off.

Q. You never tried the inshore fishery at all at the island, and whether it was good or bad you do not know ?-A. No.

Q. The second trip you got 600 barrels ?—A. Yes.

Q. Why did you take those off shore ?-A. We took 200 barrels on on the Cape Breton side, off Margaree. Those were inshore.

Q. Did you get them close inshore ?-A. Yes.

Q. There were no cutters about to disturb you then?-A. Yes, but we would clear out.

Q. Could you not catch them abroad off Margaree?—A. No; they were inshore.

Q. You swear that you did not get them inshore at Prince Edward Island at all?-A. No.

Q. At Margaree you did?-A. Yes.

Q. The mackerel, as a rule, keep inshore?-A. They do at Magdalen Islands and along Cape Breton they do.

Q. Do not they along Prince Edward Island as well?—A. I never found any inshore there around the island.

Q. Did you never fish there?-A. That fall. That was all.

Q. Did you fish inshore? Didn't you tell me just now you didn't? Why do you say you didn't get them?-A. We found plenty off shore. Q. Why did you say you could not get them inshore if you never were there? I can understand your saying you did not get them, but I do not understand how you say you could not if you were never there. What do you mean by saying you could not get them?-A. I did not say so.

Q. In point of fact, you never did try?-A. No; not around the island.

Q. At what time did you ever fish inshore at Prince Edward Island ?— A. 1855, in the mouth of September, I caught some mackerel off Souris. Q. Was that the year you took a license?-A. No.

Q. When was the time you had a vessel in the gulf before '67-'65, I think?-A. I was doing business then.

Q. You fitted out vessels in 1865. What were the names of the vessels you fitted out?-A. I fitted out two vessels in 1865, the Samuel Ober and the Antelope.

Q. Did either go in the gulf?-A. The Samuel Ober went into the gulf cod-fishing.

Q. Did she fish inshore at all?-A. No.

Q. Did she fish for mackerel at all?—A. Just a few for bait; that is all.

Q. Then you sent them in without bait?-A. Yes.

Q. Where did they catch it?-A. With nets.

Q. In what part of the bay ?-A. Wherever they fished.

Q. Where did they fish ?-A. In the spring at the Magdalens.

Q. Where did they on that occasion take their bait?-A. They took bait every night; they set nets.

Q. Do you think that is an answer to the question where they took it?-A. When they were fishing at the Magdalens they took it there; when they were at Bradley they took it there; and they took it wher ever they were fishing.

Q. I ask you where they took their bait, and you say that if they were fishing at one place they took it there, and if they were fishing at another place they took it there. I ask you where, as a matter of fact, did they take it?-A. Wherever they fished.