Q. Do they avail themselves of the privilege of getting fresh bait elsewhere?-A. There have been some in this year.

Q. These are Provincetown vessels ?-A. Yes.

Q. You stated just now that the privilege was entirely worthless!-A. If they had staid out they would do better.

Q. How do you know?-A. Those that did it did better.

Q. Those that went in did worse than those that staid out?—A. Yes. Q. And that is the reason you think it is worthless?-A. Yes.

Q. How did they happen to do worse. Is the fresh bait poorer than the salt-A. No; but it uses up so much time going for it.

Q. How long does it take them?-A. 24 hours.

Q. Then you deliberately state in consequence of going in and losing 24 hours they do worse than those that stay out and fish with salt bait ?— Well, those vessels that do

Q. You cannot answer. You say those that trust to salt bait are far better off than these that trust to fresh bait ?-A. Yes, that is my opinion-as far as Provincetown is concerned.

Q. You do not speak for Cape Ann?-A. No.

Q. Do you think they value the privilege?-A. I don't know how they value it.

Q. You haven't made up your mind?—A. No.

Q. You know about your fleet going to Grand Manan to get bait!— A. Yes.

Q. You know that?-A. I have seen them. I know they go there. Q. Did you ever go yourself?-A. No.

Q. Do you know what kinds of fishing grounds Grand Manan and Deer Island are ?-A. No.

Q. Have you ever heard about it ?—A. Yes; because we insure them sometimes.

Q. Do you know whether there is a large fishery carried on there?A. There is considerable. That is all I know.

Q. In reference to your own waters, there are not a great many British vessels fishing in your waters ?-A. I never saw them.

Q. The mackerel that are caught by the Americans themselves are caught ten or fifteen miles from laud?-A. They catch them right in Provincetown Harbor. There are mackerel on the coast.

Q. Well, then, your idea is that the mackerel are inshore ?-A. Sometimes.

Q. I mean as a rule?-A. Twenty-five years ago there was mackerel in Provincetown Harbor.

Q. Is there now?-A. I was going on to tell you the difference. This year there is mackerel there again. It is twenty five years since I saw them there.

Q. Taking the last three or four years, haven't the mackerel caught off the American coast been caught ten or fifteen miles off in the deep sea, with purse seines?-A. Yes, most of them are caught off.

Q. The bluefish-you will agree with the gentleman that was exam ined yesterday that they have come and destroyed your fisheries, or ruined them?-A. They drive away the fish wherever, they go. Q. They kill the mackerel ?-A. Yes.

Q. You never heard of the bluefish in British waters? Mr. Whiteway proposed to put some questions to the witness. Mr. Foster raised the question as to his right to cross-examine, Mr. Thomson having, on behalf of the British Government, already done so. After a brief discussion the cross examination proceeded.

By Mr. Whiteway:

Q. How many years is it since you fished?-A. Since '55 I have not fished.

Q. Was that the year you were on the Grand Bank?—A. I was not on the Grand Bank in my life.

Q. Were you ever on the coast of Newfoundland?-A. Never.

Q. Are you aware that there are excellent harbors on that coast, unsurpassed anywhere?-A. I don't know anything about it.

Q. You are not capable of expressing an opinion. You have one vessel fishing on the Banks and one in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. I have none on the Banks.

Q. Have you ever had?-A. 1874 was the last one.

Q. From 1865 to 1874 she went. Do I understand you that she fished continuously from 1865 to 1874 every year-one vessel?-A. No. I have had as high as four vessels.

Q. You had vessels fishing at the Grand Bank from 1865 to 1874?— A. Yes.

Q. Where, during that time, did these vessels obtain their bait?-A. They carried it with them from Provincetown.

Q. What bait was it?-A. It was salt clams and slivers.

Q. Entirely? What do you mean by slivers?—A. The side of a porgy fish cut off.

Q. Then salt clams and porgy slivers are the only bait you use ?—A. That was the bait we generally carried.

Q. Did they ever get squid upon the Banks?-A. Yes.

Q. Did they depend upon this squid principally for their bait?—A. No, sir; they depended upon the bait they carried.

Q. Tell me the average quantity of bait taken by each vessel?-A. A vessel carrying 175 hogsheads of salt would carry 50 barrels of bait. Q. Your vessels averaged between 65 and 80 tons?-A. Yes.

Q. These would take 50 barrels of bait?-A. Yes.

Q. Well, now, you had one vessel in 1874 that went into the Newfoundland coast. What was her name?-A. The Antelope.

Q. Was she lost there?—A. No.

Q. What was the name of the captain?—A. Alexander Lamy. He belonged to the Gut of Canso.

Q. Did she take salt bait ?—A. I think not. She took no bait.

Q. Was that the only vessel ?-A. Yes, that was the only one on the Bank.

Q. In 1873 did your vessel take any salt bait?-A. Yes.

Q. The first year they did not was 1874?-A. Yes, only one vessel. Q. Now proceeding from Provincetown, where did she go direct ?—A. To the Banks.

Q. How long did she remain there?-A. I don't know what time. Some time in August she went in.

Q. What time did she leave Provincetown?-A. Some time in May. Q. She went straight to the Banks and remained until August ?—A. No. She went into the Gut of Canso. The captain belonged there. Q. When did she arrive in the Gut of Canso?-A. In a week, I suppose, after leaving Provincetown.

Q. From this she went to the Bank?-A. Yes.

Q. There she remained until August?-A. Yes.

Q. Then she went into Newfoundland ?-A. Yes.

Q. What was she doing between the time she left the Gut of Canso

and August?-A. Fishing.

Q. What with?-A. With small codfish and halibut.

Q. Then she didn't get her full fare with that bait?-A. No. She went in and got salt squids.

Q. What quantity had she taken with that bait up to the month of August?—A. Four hundred quintals.

Q. Why didn't she continue fishing dependent upon that bait?-A. He thought he could do better going for fresh bait.

Q. But that was fresh bait, was it not?-A. Yes.

Q. Didn't he take any bait with him from the Gut of Canso?-A. I think not.

Q. Do you untertake to say he did not?-A. I know he did not. I am certain.

Q. You mean to say that a vessel proceeded from the Gut of Canso out to the Grand Bank without any bait, depending upon small codfish and halibut?-A. She might have a barrel or two when she started.

Q. Is not that an isolated case? Do you mean to say it is a common thing for them to go out depending upon bait out upon the Banks, or that it was at that time?-A. How do I understand you?

Q. Is that correct, what you stated, that they always went out depending upon salt bait? You stated that those that went out with salt bait always got their trips. We understand you now to say that some of them went out supplied with salt bait 50 barrels per vessel, and that some went depending upon the small codfish and halibut on the Banks!A. Precisely.

Q. What proportion of these vessels were supplied with salt bait, and what proportion were depending upon the small codfish and halibut?— A. I could not say.

Q. Half of them?-A. I do not know how many.

Q. Then, if a witness stated here that all the vessels that went into the Banks were supplied with salt bait up to 1873, he would not be stating what you believe to be correct?-A. I do not know anything further than I said before. I know this vessel went in 1874.

Q. Now, are you aware that a large number of vessels during the last three or four years have gone on to the coast and obtained bait for the Grand Banks ?-A. Yes.

Q. I believe the numbers have increased every year; is not that the case-A. I think it is.

Q. Well, do you think it would be very injurious in fact for them to enter?-A. That is my opinion.

Q. Well, now, has it never struck you as very singular that such a number of vessels should go in, and that every year the number should increase, if it were so very injurious to those vessels-A. Well, if I had vessels going to the Banks I should not allow them to go in for bait.

Q. Does it not strike you as being very singular that those vessels increase in numbers every year if the effect is so injurious and prejudi cial?-A. I don't know how to answer that question.

Q. You cannot answer that question; are you the agent of any vessel there in Provincetown ?-A. Yes.

Q. Besides your own, I mean?—A. No.

Q. You know Captain Atwood who was here yesterday -A. Yes. Q. He is one who is a high authority in Provincetown on the subject of the fisheries, is he not ?--A. Some.

Q. Is not he a man whose opinions relative to the subject of the fisheries are regarded as important? Is he not in fact regarded as an oracle-A. He may be scientifically, but not practically, more than the rest.

(Question repeated.)-A. He has a great many theories and opinions of his own, and his opinions are very good.

Q. The people have faith in those opinions?-A. Yes.

Q. Is that the case?-A. Yes.

Q. Now this vessel of yours, you say, went into Newfoundland for bait in August; are you aware to what place?—A. St. Peter's, I think, or St. Pierre, I believe it is.

Q. That is not in Newfoundland; didn't you know that?-A. I think it is all Newfoundland down there.

Q. You say your vessel went into St. Peter's?—A. I suppose so. I don't know whether it was St. Peter's or St. John's. It is all the same to me whether it is St. Peter's or St. John's. I felt provoked enough that he was there.

Q. As a matter of fact you say he went into St. Peter's?-A. I could not say whether it was St. Peter's or St. John's.

Q. You have said it was. Now recollect.-A. Well, I could not say. I would not swear. I had other business to attend to.

Q. Will you swear that it was not St. Matthew's? Do you know whether there is a harbor called St. Matthew's?—A. No.

Q. Do you know whether he was on the coast of Newfoundland at all!—A. I know he was, because he had a draft.

Q. In whose favor?-A. It was drawn on me.

Q. Well, now, who was it in favor of ?-A. I don't know who the party was.

Q. Do

you recollect the amount ?-A. No.

Q. Did you pay it?-A. I did.

Q. Did you get a bill of parcels of what he bought?-A. I did.

Q. Whose name was to the bill?-A. I don't recollect.

Q. What do you recollect about it? Let us know.-A. I recollect that

he went in there and didn't get home until November.

Q. Where did he go in ?-A. Some part of the British provincesinto Newfoundland.

Q Will you undertake to swear it was Newfoundland now?-A. No, I would not say, because I do not remember. It was so small an affair that I paid no attention to it.

Q. You are president of an insurance society?—A. Yes.

Q. Is it mutual or has it a subscribed stock?—A. It has a capital stock of $100,000.

Q. What was it I understood you to say with regard to increasing the rate of premium? You were going to put some additional clause in to increase the premium. As regards what place?-A. As regards any of these vessels leaving the Bank and going in for bait.

Q. You have not put that in the policy yet?—A. No.

Q. Although those vessels have been going in there for three or four years?-A. Some have. There are one or two cases where they have done it with certain vessels.

Q. In Provincetown?-A. Yes.

Q. Could you produce one of those policies?-A. I could not now. Q. Do you remember what it was that was put in ?—A. It was to prohibit them from going in for bait.

Q. Are you aware that all along the coast where those vessels go in there is not a single shoal or rock to bring a vessel up, and that they go directly into the harbor; that in reality the eastern coast of Newfoundland is the least dangerous coast we have?-A. I know I have to pay for one vessel.

Q. There was one vessel lost there during the last three or four years;

can you name any other vessel? During the four years that all the American fleet have been going in there has been only one vessel lost; that is the fact, I believe?-A. I do not know.

Q. You don't know any other?-A. I know of her because I was interested in her.

Q. You don't know any other? What fish do you take in the weirs you speak of?—A. Herrings, pogies, squid, and mackerel.

By Mr. Trescot:

Q. You have been asked a great deal about going into Newfoundland for bait. I understand you meant to say that as far as your experience goes

Mr. WHITEWAY. We want to know what he said.

Mr. TRESCOT. I want to know what he meant, whether I understood him correctly.

Q. I understood you to say this, that as far as your experience went you would prefer, and those with whom you dealt would prefer, that your vessels should go to the Bank with salt bait and take their chance of getting a good return, rather than waste the time necessary to go into any of the ports of Newfoundland to buy fresh bait?-A. Yes.

Q. And that your opinion is gaining ground among them?-A. Yes. Q. I have only one other question. I want to know whether I understood you correctly, because Mr. Thomson didn't seem to. I understood you to say that there was a general unwillingness on the part of those people you were familiar with to go within the three-mile limit, because the cost of their vessels was such that they didn't choose to run any risk, and that when they took licenses they took them to guard against any mistake?-A. Yes. We would pay $81 rather than run the risk of losing our vessel.

No. 8.

HENRY COOK, of Provincetown, Mass., owner and fitter-out of vessels, called on behalf of the Government United States, sworn and examined.

By Mr. Foster:

Question. What is your age?-Answer. Sixty-four.

Q. You are the owner of vessels and the fitter-out of vessels for the Bank fisheries for cod, I believe?-A. Yes.

Q. In early life you were yourself a fisherman?—A. I was.

Q. How many years?—A. I think 35 years.

Q. Did you fish a little for mackerel ?—A. Yes.

Q. But principally for codfish ?—A. Principally.

Q. Did you ever make any mackereling trips to the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. I did once.

Q. What year was that?-A. In '41.

Q. How many barrels did you get, if you remember?-A. I got 68 barrels.

Q. I will come now to what has been your principal business. By the way, have you been interested in any mackerel vessels of late years!A. I have had one that I had in the mackerel fishery in 1874.

Q. What was her name ?-A. The Teresa D. Baker. She fished somewhere on the coast of the United States.

Q. In what way?-A. She fished with seine altogether.

Q. How many barrels did she get?-A. Somewhere in the neighbor hood of 300.

Q. Did you come up to St. Peter's one season to live?-A. I did. I