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calculated to carry on business there to have my vessels come into St. Peter's and fish there.

Q. What St. Peter's do you refer to-where is it ?-A. In Cape Breton. Q. And you meant your cod fishermen to come there and procure fish there?-A. The first trip.

Q. Well, did you establish yourself there ?-A. Yes.

Q. How long?-A. I staid there three months.

Q. Was the experiment profitable?—A. No.

Q. You abandoned it because it was not profitable?-A. Yes.

Q. How many cod-fishing vessels are you interested in now?-A. Seven.

Q. Where are they?-A. Three are home in the harbor, one in the gulf, and three are on the Grand Bank.

Q. Where is the one in the Bay of St. Lawrence?-A. She was fishing on Bank Bradley the last I knew anything of her.

Q. Now, what does she do about bait ?-A. I think I gave her eighteen herring-nets heavily laden; hardly any corks. They sink about 5 fathoms.

Q. How are they used?-A. They put them out from the vessel, and tie one to another. They set generally about two-thirds, and keep onethird as a reserve in case of losing the others. They have these to fall back upon.

Q. There would be about twelve of these nets set to catch herring for bait?-A. Yes.

Q. Is that done on the cod-fishing grounds ?-A. Altogether, that ever I have heard them say. I never was there.

Q. At Bradley ?-A. Yes.

Q. Now, take your other vessels cod-fishing. You say three of them are on the bank and three have returned. State, if you please, how you provided them with bait this year.-A. I provided my hand-line vessels with sufficient bait to obtain a cargo.

Q. What bait was it?-A. The Gertrude is the one that arrived at Provincetown. She had 50 barrels of clams, at $5. She came home with a full cargo of 1,300 quintals, and sold 18 barrels of clams on the bank.

Q. You provide them with clam-bait wholly for voyages on the Grand Bank-A. Yes.

Q. Was that the first to make a full trip this year?-A. She was the first one in the harbor-about three weeks ahead of any other.

Q. Take the second vessel-the second one in.-A. Yes. That was the Arthur Clifford. She had 1,600 quintals. She carried 40 barrels of clams, with a trawl. She fished with the trawl. She went into Newfoundland twice; but she carried into Newfoundland when she first went in 1,000 quintals.

Q. Caught with salt clams?-A. Yes, and what he could get out of the fish.

Q. Now, her two trips to Newfoundland cost how much?-A. One hundred and forty-seven dollars, gold.

Q. Now, take the two vessels, the Gertrude that came in first and got 1,350 quintals with salt claims, and the Arthur Clifford that got 1,600 quintals and took 600 of them with squid at $147 gold, which was the most profitable of the two voyages?—A. The most profitable was the one with the clam bait, the Gertrude.

Q. Take your other vessels, you say a third has come back?-A. Yes. She is the schooner S. E. Davis.

Q. What did she do?-A. She had 1,500 quintals or thereabouts. This is guess. She consumed all her salt, and I suppose she has 1,500

quintals. She carried 1,500 quintals into Newfoundland, taken with salt clams and what bait she obtained from the fish.

Q. Now, I notice on page 162 of the British Testimony an account of an American banker, the Winona, from Provincetown. Do you know anything about her?-A. I don't know anything about her any more than that she was reported as doing slim.

Q. Then I understand there is something about the Chanticleer; that is one of your vessels ?-A. Yes.

Q. Did she go into Newfoundland for bait ?-A. Not expressly. She was disabled. She lost her boat's crew.

Q. She went in in distress?-A. Yes.

Q. And the vessel was left at Newfoundland, was it?—A. Yes.

Q. There is another vessel, the Speedwell, said to be in.-A. She sprang a leak and went in.

Q. Then the Chanticleer, your vessel, went in in consequence of being disabled?-A. In consequence of the loss of the crew. What crew she had left was not good for much.

Q. Take the other vessels that are fishing for codfish on the Banks this year. Is there any other?-A. Yes, there is a schooner, the Lizzie W. Mattheson. She is hand-lining, and carried 120 barrels of clams. She had 2,200 quintals on the 19th August. She is a large vessel of 240 tons.

Q. How many would she take?—A. 4,000 quintals.

Q. Then she expects a cargo of 4,000 quintals, if she makes a full Voyage?-A. Yes.

Q. She has taken, you say, with salt clams, 2,200 quintals ?-A. 2,200 to 2,400 on the 19th August.

Q. Now, I will ask you whether you regard the opportunity of pur chasing bait in Newfoundland as a valuable one to your fishermen ?—A. It is not for me.

Q. Suppose they were cut off from buying bait and the traffic was interrupted, could they go and fish for bait in Newfoundland just as well, or would that be worse than buying it ?—A. I would not have them go go in if they could.

Q. What instructions do you give your captains with reference to going there?-A. Well, I instruct them in this way, that I should protest their drafts if they sent any drafts from Newfoundland this year. Last year they were in once or twice and never caught any fish.

Q. And your experience has been that you make a less profitable voy age if they go to Newfoundland than if they remain fishing with salt clams?-A. Certainly.

Q. How long, on an average, has it taken your vessels to go to New foundland and return to the cod-fishing ground, when they have tried the experiment; how much has the fishing been interrupted ?-A. It takes an average of ten days. Last year the captain reported, when I talked to him so strongly about not going in; he told me the number of days, and I think it was 4 days. But this year it is more immoderate weather, and it will take longer.

Q. You think, on the average of the whole, it will take them 10 days?— A. They would lose 10 days' fishing.

Q. What other bait is procurable on the banks without going off the fishing grounds?-A. They can get about half enough out of the fish. Q. Have you ever known codfish itself to be cut up for bait ?—A. I had a vessel year before last that caught all in that way.

Q. What vessel?-A. The Arthur Clifford. She was a trawler.

Q. You had a trawling-vessel year before last that cut up fish and got a full fare?—A. She caught 1,640 quintals.

Q. Do you know of any cod-fishing prosecuted within 3 miles of the shore in British waters ?-A. I don't know of any.

Q. There has been some account given here of some young men from Provincetown who went to Magdalen Islands and established themselves on the shore. Do you know anything about that ?-A. No. There are some that have gone there. I do not know what they are doing. Q. You don't know the facts?-A. No.

Q. Do you know how long it takes to go over from where our cod-fishermen generally fish on the banks to St. Pierre, the French island ?—A. There is no great difference between that and St. John's. It is very trifling. A vessel fishing on the southern part of the Bank would be likely to go into St. Pierre about as quick as from the northern part into St. John's. St. Peter's is something westward of St. John's, on the south coast of Newfoundland, and the Bank extends northeast and southwest, which would bring it about the same distance. It is just about 100 miles from where our fishermen fish on the Bank to St. John's.

By Mr. Whiteway:

Q. You say you have now seven vessels cod-fishing?-A. Yes.

Q. How long have you been carrying on the cod fishery?-A. Well, I commenced about twenty-five years ago, I think. I was engaged in the bay fishing mostly the first part.

Q. Your cod-fishing is principally in the gulf and on the Banks ?—A. It is pretty much altogether on the Banks.

Q. Well, it is very profitable fishery, is it not?-A. Sometimes it is very profitable.

Q. Upon the whole, it is a very profitable business?-A. Well, I can't say it is a very profitable business. We make a living.

Q. A very good one?-A. We make a living. I never got rich; I never got independent.

Q. Provincetown is a very respectable town. It is principally built up by the bankers, is it not?-A. No, sir. Our whaling business, I think, brings more money than the bankers.

Q. Well, how long was it since your vessels first went into the British provinces, into Newfoundland, for fresh bait?—A. Well, I guess about three years ago.

Q. They have continued to go ever since?-A. Yes, they have been two years to my certain knowledge.

Q. Three years, then, they have gone?-A. I think it likely that they have, some of them; not before three years ago.

Q. You have spoken of those vessels-the Chanticleer, the Speedwell, the Lizzie W. Mattheson, the Arthur Clifford, the Gertrude, and the S. E. Davis-and you have given us an account of their voyages, and what has been realized as far as you have heard from them for the present year? A. Yes.

Q. Can you give the results of the several voyages last year or the year before?-A. I could not; I haven't the figures. But there were three of them that got half fares-between 800 and 900 quintals.

Q. The three others-what about them?-A. The big one didn't go last year. I had five on the Banks last year. The other two did decently.

Q. Name them-name the five ?—A. Well, take out Lizzie W. Mattheson and the big one; that leaves five.

Q. You take out Lizzie W. Mattheson and the Speedwell?-A. I had

nothing to do with the Speedwell. She was only spoken of as one of those that went in.

Q. She didn't belong to you?-A. No.

Q. Name the five then?-A. The Arthur Clifford, S. E. Davis, the Teresa D. Baker, the Chanticleer, and the Gertrude.

Q. Can you give me an account of what they did severally ?—A. I havn't the figures.

Q. How many of them made full fares?-A. Teresa D. Baker consumed five hogsheads of salt. That was very nearly her full fare.

Q. Was she upon the coast to get bait ?-A. I don't think she went in. Q. Do you know whether she did or not?—A. I don't know. I say I think she did not.

Q. Never mind what you think. You say you don't know.-A. Well, if I told you I did not know, I would not be telling you all I know. Q. Do you say more?-A. I say I think not.

Q. What about the other four ?-A. The Arthur Clifford was in, and the S. E. Davis.

Q. What captain was it that told you it took him four days to go in and get bait, and come out again?-A. Captain McDonald, in the Arthur Clifford.

Q. Is that the only captain from whom you have heard how long it takes to go in for bait?—A. No, I have heard others.

Q. Of your own captains?-A. I had one that was three weeks, some years ago, in at St. Peter's.

Q. How many years ago was that?-A. Five years, I guess.

Q. Are you aware that St. Peter's is not part of Newfoundland, and is not under the jurisdiction of Newfoundland or of the British Government?-A. Yes; I knew it was French.

Q. Have other of your captains told you that it took them four days to go into the Newfoundland coast to get bait and come out?—A. Not that exact time.

Q. Then it is only from him you have the information as to the time it takes. Is that the case; is Captain McDonald the only man ?—A. O, no; I have talked with other captains that don't belong to my vessels about the matter, and that was the reason why I didn't want my vessels to go in, because they took so much time.

Q. What others?-A. I have talked with some that belonged to my cousin's vessel, the Ella May, and several others.

Q. Give the captains' names.-A. Captain Mayhew.

Q. Was that the only one?-A. No; I suppose not. I have talked with the whole of them.

Q. How long did Mayhew say it took ?-A. He said it took him a week to make the trip into Newfoundland and back.

Q. Is there any other?-A. Yes; I have talked with the whole of them. If I was to tell you the names of all it would take me the rest of the day.

Q. We will require to know the names of the others?—A. There was no particular time stated by many of them, but they found a good deal of fault with the going in for bait.

Q. Is there any other captain who told you the time it would take?— A. Yes; I can name a dozen.

Q. Name them.

Mr. DANA. You do not want these names.

Mr. WHITEWAY (to the witness). You say you can name them. Do you refuse to do so? If you do there is an end of it. Do you refuse to do so?-A. No; I do not refuse.

Q. Will you do it then?-A. Yes; I could name them if I was to bring them to my recollection-to look them all up.

Q. Well, you cannot recollect them all now?-A. I can some.

Q. We might have had the whole of them by this time.-A. There is James Small.

Q. How long did he say?—A. It took him three weeks to go in to St. Peter's.

Q. Go on.

Who else?-A. William Mattheson.

Q. How long did he say?-A. I do not know the time.

Q. Who else?-A. Captain Mackay.

Q. How long did he say?-A. I do not recollect.

Q. Any one else?-A. I could go on naming them.

Q. Well, go on; the quicker you go the quicker we will get done.A. How many do you want to know, the whole of them?

Q. Yes; the dozen you spoke of.-A. If it must be, I will have to make a memorandum.

Q. It would be very interesting, indeed; let us have the other eight.A. There is where I got my knowledge from.

Q. From the captains that visited Newfoundland for bait-those you have named? As to the other captains, you don't remember the times it occupied them?-A. I didn't suppose

Q. Never mind supposing; did other captains tell you the time?-A. They did. I can't recollect each one separately.

Q. Well, now, why did you pledge yourself that it would occupy on the average ten days to go in and get bait and come out? You pledged yourself to that statement. Now you say the only basis of that is that two captains told you it occupied them four days, and another a week; how do you arrive at ten days?-A. There is one in there now.

Q. Never mind about him. Explain how you arrived at ten days. You pledged your oath it would occupy ten days to go in.-A. I pledged my oath! I said no such thing.

Q. You didn't say it would occupy ten days?—A. I said that was my best judgment.

Q. You pledged your word?-A. I didn't pledge my word at the time. Q. You withdraw it?—A. I pledge my word that is the best of my judgment.

Q. But you never were down there?-A. Not on the Bank fishery. I told you I was not there; that I got my information from captains that had been there.

Q. One told you four days, and another a week?-A. Yes; owing to the vessel's sailing, and the weather. If you got in the fog

Q. Don't you know there is no fog on the coast of Newfoundland ?— A. I have been there myself.

Q. When?-A. A great many years ago.

Q. You said you never were there?-A. I was never there for bait. Q. Were you there Bank-fishing ?-A. No.

Q. You were on the coast, you say?-A. I have harbored in Newfoundland a good many times.

Q. When were you there?-A. I can go back to forty years ago. Q. Where were you then ?-A. On the north side of Newfoundland. Q. Be kind enough to say what part.-A. Bonne Bay and Bay of Islands.

Q. That is on the western side, is it not?-A. No; on the northwestern.

Q. You were there forty years ago; did you see any fog?-A. Plenty