Q. Where were you in 1860 ?-A. In the schooner Empire, Captain Newcomb. We were in the bay during the first part of the season, taking 140 barrels off the Magdalen Islands and Bryon Island. We afterward went home and caught 430 barrels on our shore. In 1859 I was not fishing, but coasting. Q. Where were you in 1861 ?-A. I was in the Empire, Captain Newcomb, on our shore. We only fished part of the year. We did not do much in the fall, when I was on a trading voyage. Q. What did you do in 1862?—A. I was in the Mary B. Dyer, Captain Purvere. Q. What did you catch?-A. I could not say exactly; but we took from 500 to 600 or 700 barrels. Q. And in 1863?—A. I was then in the Mary B. Dyer, Captain Purvere, in the bay and on our shore. We caught 280 barrels in the bay. Q. Where?-A. Over at the Magdalen Islands and on Banks Bradley and Orphan. We afterwards fished on our shore and took about 300 barrels. Q. What did you do in 1864?—A. I was in the schooner Maria Webster, Captain Newcombe. We went to the bay and got 320 barrels. We landed 200 in Bouche Bay, and returning into the bay, caught 210 barrels more; in all we carried 530 barrels out of the bay that year. We did not transship any. Q. What proportion of these did you take within the limits?-A. We so caught a few on our first trip; that is a hard question to answer; but I could not say that we so obtained more than from 20 to 40 barrels that year. Q. What did you do in 1865?-A. I was in the Mary B. Dyer, on our shore. Q. What did you do?-A. I cannot remember; that year is almost a blank to me. Q. And in 1866 ?—A. I was then on the C. W. Dyer, in the bay, on two trips as master. Q. What was her size?-A. About 160 tons. Q. What did you do?-A. On our first trip we only got 180 barrels. Q. Where?-A. Principally at the Magdalen Islands. Q. What did you get on the second trip?-A. About 120 barrels. We did not fish within the limits. We caught that trip principally off North Cape. Q. And in 1867?-A. I was then in the schooner Finback, two trips in the bay. Q. What did you get at your first trip?-A. About 180 barrels. Q. Where?-A. Principally on Bank Bradley and over at the Magdalen Islands. Q. How about the second trip?-A. We took then about the same number-180. Q. Where?-A. Part of them down towards East Point, and part right off North Cape. Q. Did you obtain any within the 3 mile limit?-A. No. Q. Had you then a license?-A. Yes. Q. What was your object in buying a license; was it to fish within the 3-mile limit?-A. I had two reasons for doing it; one was that if I went into the bay and fished anywhere back of Prince Edward Island, I considered from what I had seen in former years that I was at any time just as liable to be seized 10 miles off shore as 3 miles off; and another reason was, that as fish were to be caught sometimes inshore, I wished to have the chance of so securing them if any were so to be had. Q. When you say that at any time, according to your experience, you were as liable to be seized within 10 miles as 3 miles of the shore, you mean that you had seen American vessels liable to seizure when they were not within the limits?-A. I have seen American vessels bothered by cutters and driven off, when I will take my oath that they were more than 3 or 6 miles from the shore. The distance was in question at the time from headland to headland, drawing a line between them, and I did not like to take my chances; that was my idea in taking out a license. Q. Where were you in 1868?—A. I was running with fruit between the West Indies and Boston. Q. And in 1869?-A. I then gave up my vessel and went in the schooner E. L. Rich, Captain Jenkius. Q. Where?-A. On our shore. Q. Entirely-A. Yes; we landed 1,250 barrels. Q. Where were you in 1870?-A. I was in the schooner Finback; we caught 250 barrels on our shore, and then went to the bay, where we took 180 barrels. Q. Where?-A. All to the nor'ward, on Banks Bradley and Orphan, &c. Q. And in 1876?-A. I was then in the schooner I command now; and we took 390 barrels on our shore. I built her, however, for the fruit trade. Q. Then you have had considerable experience mackerel-fishing!A. Yes. Q. Taking into consideration your whole experience in this respect, and that of the people with whom you are accustomed to live and con duct your industry, what is your opinion concerning the privilege of fishing within three miles of the coast in British waters; which privi lege is the greater, that of being able so to fish in these waters, or that of having the old duty put back on colonial-caught fish, with exclusion from British waters within the limits?-A. If I were now engaged in the fisheries, as I used to be, I would prefer a good deal to have the duties on, and take my chances about going in. Q. With your experience of your town, which is a fishing town entirely, what is your opinion of the value of the American shore fishery as being sufficient to keep your fishing industry afloat?-A. As far as the experience of my town goes-I have no statistics from any otherthe Gulf of St. Lawrence fisheries are of no account to us at all, as far as I have looked into the question during the last few years. I have not made a business of studying it up for any number of years, but taking the last three or four years, during which I have studied it up, I find that the bay fisheries are of no account to us at all; and I think that I can prove it. Q. During the last 6 or 8 years you would say that the majority of the Wellfleet vessels have prosecuted the fisheries on the American shore-A. Yes, decidedly. Q. Do you know anything of the habits of the mackerel, and, if so, do you believe that the testimony given as to their spawning on the Amer ican shore is correct?-A. I am convinced that the mackerel spawn on the American shore; this is the case with any amount of them. Q. Why?-A. I have seen there young mackerel which could not have been produced from spawn deposited anywhere else; they were very small. Q. How large were they?-A. I saw them this spring around home when coming to New York; and the last of July I saw them on a calm day back of Long Island, and midway between this island and home. I then saw any amount of schools of mackerel, small and fine. I tried half a dozen times, desiring to procure a fresh mess, and I could not catch any longer than one of my fingers; these must have come from spawn deposited this year; this is the idea which I have formed as to these fish, and it is an idea which I have heard scientific men advance. We would see thousands of barrels of these mackerel; and any man knows what a school of fish is. These schools extended as far as the eye could reach. Q. With your experience of fishing in the gulf, do you consider that there is any very much greater danger incurred in fishing about the Magdalen Islands than in any other portion of the gulf?-A. No; I consider them the safest fishing grounds to be found anywhere in the gulf inshore. Of course, if you are in the middle of the gulf you are safe. Q. Do you consider them safer than the bight of the island for fishing purposes?—A. Yes; if a man is a practical seaman, he understands that the outermost part of the island is safer than the bight of it, for then you can carry sail and go anywhere, while in the bight you are jammed in. The gale of 1851 proved that; and I do not see the use of arguing it. Q. As to the harbors, Malpeque and Cascumpeque, do you think that they afford security against danger?-A. Malpeque is a comparatively safe harbor when you are in it, although I have seen vessels lost there by drifting on shore; this was in 1867, I think. I was in there when several vessel went adrift. It is a bad harbor to enter during a gale of wind. The C. W. Dyer, in which I was, was nearly lost while going in there. I do not consider Cascumpeque a safe harbor to enter at any time; a vessel is liableto go ashore if an east wind blows up. By Mr. Davies: Q. You have fished at or sailed from Wellfleet all the time?-A. Yes; I have sailed from there; it is my home. Q. Are there many vessels which come from that port to the Bay of Saint Lawrence?-A. No; not within the past three or four years; but formerly quite a little fleet did so; say one-third of our vessels came to the bay some years, but I could not give the years. Q. One-third of the Wellfleet fleet did so some years?-A. Yes. Q. Give me an idea as to how many vessels came from Wellfleet to the Bay of Saint Lawrence to fish, say ten years ago, in 1867?—A. There possibly might then have been eight or ten; I won't be sure about the number. Q. So very few-a very small proportion, considering the whole num ber of the American fleet, came to the bay?-A. Our fleet has for years principally fished on our own shore. Q. You did not prosecute the gulf fisheries very much, I judge from that?-A. We did not. Q. Have you gone much over the bay in fishing?—A. I have sailed over the Bay of Saint Lawrence from the Gut of Canso to Cape George as far as Georgetown around the island and up the island to Points Escuminae and Miscou, up to Bonaventure, &c., on the Banks; across to the Magdalen Islands and down as far as Bryon Island, and over to Cape North. I have been all over that ground, but never, I think, to the northward of Bonaventure. Q. Have you ever fished off the Seven Islands?-A. No; nor off Gaspé; nor anywhere on that ground. Q. Have you ever fished on the Bay of Chaleurs?-A. No; I was never in there but once-to make a harbor at Port Daniel. Q. Have you ever fished around the west shore, from Point Escuminac to Richibucto?—A. I have never been up as far as Richibucto. I have been as far as Point Escuminac, but I never fished inshore there. Q. You never followed the mackerel down there at all?-A. Never close in; but I have fished a little off there. Q. You have fished around Prince Edward Island?-A. Yes; all the way from North Cape to East Point. Q. Down to Miminegash?-A. I was never there. Q. You were fishing in the bight of the island chiefly?—A. Yes; between North Cape and East Point. Q. I suppose past New London and Malpeque?-A. Yes. Q. Did you ever go into the harbor along there at night?—A. I was in Malpeque a great many times. Q. Was it the custom of the American vessels to go in there about dark?-A. Well, some of the small vessels make a practice of going in every night, but I was never in a vessel that did so; we went in for wood and water. In Wellfleet we never fish Sundays, and generally Saturday night we used to go in and stay over Sunday; I do not profess goodness, but Wellfleet vessels, as a class, never fish on Sunday. Q. Were you accustomed to take shelter at night in the harbors?—A. No. Q. You did not fear to fish off the coast of the island outside the limits?-A. Not in the early part of the summer; I was never fishing close enough in to be afraid of fishing there at any season of the year; I do not consider any place dangerous in July, because anybody knows that easterly winds are not prevalent during July back of the island or any. where else. Q. What winds are prevalent on the north shore of the island in July! -A. South and southwest winds, I think. Q. Blowing off shore ?-A. Yes; but after August 10th they are liable to be caught. Q. The winds are almost invariably off shore in July?-A. Yes. Q. How does it then blow ?-A. The prevailing wind is still west and southwest. Q. And that prevailing wind renders the north side of Prince Edward Island practically as safe as possible?-A. Yes, while it lasts; but after the 10th of August I think you are liable at any time to be caught by an easterly wind, and when the wind is from the eastward that is a dan gerous place, owing to the bars. It is not safe then for vessels drawing over eight feet of water, unless the captain is very well acquainted with the coast. Q. After the 10th of August or 10th of September, which would you say?-A. I think from the 10th of August out this is the case. Q. Have you been there very much about the 10th of August ?—A. I have fished in the bay during several falls as far as into October and as late as the 10th of that month about the island. Q. Do you think that an easterly wind is very dangerous there ?—A. Yes. Q. Why?-A. Because, if it comes on to blow, it gets up a sea in shoal water; and, naturally, with an easterly wind the weather thickens up, and you cannot see where you are going; and there will be such a sea on the bar that it will not be safe to go into a harbor. Q. You do not think that it thickens up about the 10th of August?. A. I was in the greatest scrape I was ever in off Malpeque Bar. Q. And that scrape frightened you ?-A. No. Q. When was that?-A. In 1866 or 1867; I was in the schooner C. W. Dyer; I was fishing then just in the lay of the land off Malpeque and of the high land off New London. Q. How far off?—A. Probably 12 or 15 miles. Q. That would take you well clear of the bight altogether?-A. Yes. Q. What possible danger could you be in 12 or 15 miles off?-A. We hove to as usual under foresail-a vessel makes leeway under foresail and I was not called to until 12 o'clock at night, when, perhaps, we were 7 or 8 miles off the land; a good breeze was blowing from the eastward, and we raised our sails to carry us out, because I did not consider that we would be safe in going into Malpeque harbor at night, for there was not half a light at the place; it never was otherwise. We were going straight out when the wind blew away my foresail and left the mainsail jib. Q. Was not all that liable to happen not only in the bight of the isl and, but almost anywhere?-A. There would have been no danger if we had not been in the bight and back of the island; under other cir umstances we would have had no trouble in getting off with our jib. Q. If the wind was blowing east?-A. I do not say that the wind there is direct east, but it is an easterly wind. Q. What possible difficulty could there have been in your getting clear off around North Cape?-A. My schooner is of 160 tons, Baltimore built, drawing 12 feet of water; I consider her as smart as any vessel in our fleet, and when I went over by North Cape I did not find over 43 fathoms of water, which was not near enough for the purpose. Q. You were 12 miles off the bight of the island?-A. Yes. Q. And you drifted within seven miles of the shore ?-A. Yes. Q. Now, with an easterly wind blowing, what possible difficulty were you in?-A. The wind blew away my sails. When I speak of the wind being easterly there, I mean that the prevailing wind is from the northeast and southeast.. Q. You were seven miles off New London; and can you not run off without the slightest difficulty there?-A. No. Q. Drawing a straight line from North Cape to East Point, how far will it run off New London ?-A. Twenty-odd miles. Q. Have you measured the distance?-A. I do not know that I have. Q. Is it on that supposition that you base your statement?-A. No. When I went across the bar there were only 4 fathoms of water. Q. If the wind is as you state, is there any difficulty to be experienced with respect to a vessel being seven miles off shore?-A. Yes, in a gale of wind. Q. What would be the case with a westerly wind?-A. You could not go ashore in a westerly gale if you tried to, if off shore at the place I am speaking of; but, at the same time, you could not get around East Point. Q. If a westerly wind was blowing, and you were in the bight of the island, could you not easily run around East Point?-A. No; but you could drift off to sea. Q. No danger is to be apprehended, as far as the island coast is concerned, in such a wind?-A. No. Q. But with an east wind danger is to be feared?-A. Yes; when the wind is northeast and southeast. |