to come to the gulf to catch mackerel, would you be prevented from doing it by the fact that you were forbidden to fish within three miles of the shore ?-A. I think so.

Q. You would not come ?-A. I would sooner fish on our shores now any time.

By Mr. Weatherbe:

Q. If you were forbidden to come within three miles of the shore, would you come at all?—A. It would be under certain circumstances. If there were no fish with us and plenty there, perhaps I might. I can. not say as to that.

Q. From your experience, if you had been restricted, during all the years you came to the bay, from coming to within three miles of the shore, you would not have come?-A. I think not.

No. 17.

D. W. OLIVER, of Wellfleet, Mass., fisherman, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined.

By Mr. Trescot:

Question. You have been engaged in fishing? How old are you?Answer. 37 years.

Q. How long have you been fishing ?—A. 22 seasons.

Q. Mackerel fishing entirely?-A. Yes.

Q. Where have you been fishing?-A. Partly in Bay St. Lawrence and partly on our own coast. Parts of 7 seasons I was in the bay. Q. Then you had an opportunity to compare the two fisheries?—A. Yes.

Q. As far as your experience goes, which fishery is the more profita ble-A. That on our own shores.

Q. What was your average catch on our shores ?-A. Our catches were from 500 to 1,200 barrels.

Q. What was the average catch in the gulf?-A. The catches were from 130 to 460 barrels.

Q. When fishing in the gulf, what portion did you take inshore, within the three-mile limit?-A. Very little.

Q. You have fished inside?-A. I would not swear I had not fished within the limits. I will allow that I have, a little.

Q. As far as the experience of Wellfleet fishermen goes, it is no great advantage to have the privilege of the inshore fishery of the gulf?-A. No.

Q. What is the number of the vessels from Wellfleet which have gone mackerel-fishing this season?-A. 52 sail.

Q. What portion has gone to the gulf?-A. One has been there part of the season, but she came out.

Q. As a general rule, you don't value the gulf fishery, for you send a very small portion of your fleet there?-A. Yes.

By Mr. Davies:

Q. Where did you fish in the bay ?-A. I fished in different places in the gulf.

Q. Whereabouts?-A. On Bank Bradley, at Magdalen Islands, and at Bank Orphan.

Q. Any other places ?-A. Along the north side of Prince Edward Island.

Q. From East Point to North Cape?-A. Yes.

Q. What year did you fish there?-A. In 1857. I fished from the west shore down the north side of the island.

Q.Was that the only year?-A. Yes.

Q. How many seasons altogether were you in the gulf?-A. Seven, I believe.

Q. Your chief fishing was outside?-A. Yes.

Q. And you made poor catches?-A. Yes.

Q. Did the business pay at all?-A. I made a trip that paid me one

season.

Q. With the exception of that, it was not a paying business?-A. No.

Q. You did not fish within the limits at all?—A. I did not, to speak of. Q. Did the season when you caught your fish along the island, pay pretty well?-A. We were three months, and got 300 barrels.

Q. How was it you stuck in there and did not go out into the bay?— A. We were in there, and thought we would make a business of it.

Q. What was the size of the vessel in which you fished on your own coast when you caught 1,200 barrels ?-A. 90 tons, old register.

Q. How many months were you in catching 1,200 barrels ?-A. About five months.

Q. How many hands were employed?-A. Thirteen.

Q. Was that considered a good catch in five months?-A. Yes.
Q. Paid well?-A. Yes.

Q. Netting a good profit?-A. Yes.

Q. How much profit would a vessel catching 1,200 barrels of mackerel in five months make?-A. I don't think I could say. The crew got $300 apiece.

Q. That would not be very extra?—A. It is a very good average compared with what they get down here. Three to one, according to my experience.

Q. Vessels have taken 1,200 barrels in the bay?—A. I don't know. Q. That would leave a good profit for five months' work?-A. Yes. Q. Would it leave a large profit?-A. It is according to the quality of the fish.

Q. What was the quality you caught?-A. The quality of the fish was nothing extra that season.

Q. How far from the shore did you take them?-A. We caught them all along the coast of Maine.

Q. Any away down at George's?-A. We did not go down to George's. Q. 30, 20, and 10 miles out?-A. Yes.

Q. Chiefly ten or twenty miles ?-A. Sometimes we were within two or three miles of land. Sometimes we would not be within 50 miles.

By Sir Alexander Galt:

Q. Did you catch the fish with a purse seine?-A. No, with hook and line.

Q. When you caught 1,200 barrels, were they taken with hook and line? A. Yes. The following season I caught 1,000 barrels which brought $14,000.

Q. They were better fish?-A. Yes. They were caught on our own shores.

The Conference met.

No. 18.

TUESDAY, September 25, 1877.

GEORGE FRIEND, of Gloucester, Mass., fisherman and sailmaker, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined.

By Mr. Foster:

Question. What is your age?-Answer. Fifty-five years last July. Q. When were you first in the Gulf of St. Lawrence fishing for mackerel?-A. In 1836.

Q. Do you remember how many barrels you caught that year?—A. About 120 barrels.

Q. Do you recollect where you fished?-A. Mostly all over the bay.
Q. It was a poor year, and you fished all over the bay ?-A. Yes.
Q. Did you fish within three miles of the shore?-A. No.

Q. Was there any reason why that should not be done that year?A. We found no mackerel there, and if we had, there was a cutter, an English man-of-war, there.

Q. In 1843 and 1844, were you next in the bay?-A. Yes.

Q. Fishing for mackerel ?-A. Yes.

Q. What were you, a sharesman?-A. Yes.

Q. Did you own part of the vessel?-A. I owned one-fourth part. Q. What was the vessel?-A. The schooner Constitution, about 70 tons.

Q. How many mackerel did you take those years, 1843 and 1844?— A. We took 270 barrels, I think, the first of those years; and from 260 to 270 barrels the second.

Q. Where were they caught?-A. At the Magdalen Islands.

Q. You were in the gulf again fishing for mackerel in 1853, I believe? -A. Yes.

Q. In what capacity were you in the vessel ?—A. As a sharesman. Q. What was the vessel?-A. The Republic.

Q. How many barrels of mackerel were taken ?-A. About 280. Q. Where were they taken?-A. At the Magdalen Islands, North Cape, and on Banks Bradley and Orphan.

Q. When were you next in the bay?-A. In 1855.

Q. When you came in 1855 to the bay, were you skipper?—A. I was. Q. What was the vessel ?-A. The Republic.

Q. Of what tonnage?—A. 102 tons and a few feet, old measurement. Q. And were you in the same vessel in the Gulf of St. Lawrence during the following years, from 1855 to 1860, inclusive ?-A. Yes.

Q. I will take these trips and see where you went and where you caught your mackerel. We will begin with your first trip in the Republic, as skipper. How many trips did you make in 1855?—A. Two.

Q. How many barrels did you take the first trip?-A. About 380. Q. Where were they caught?-A. At Bank Bradley, North Cape, and a few at Magdalen Islands and Burnt Island.

Q. What did you do with your first trip of 380 barrels ?-A. Took them home to Gloucester.

Q. Did you make another trip here that year?-A. Yes.

Q. What time did you leave Gloucester on the second trip?—A. At the latter end of September.

Q. How many barrels did you take on the second trip?-A. If my memory serves me right, 140 or 150 barrels.

Q. Where were they taken ?-A. Most of them to the northward of Magdalen Islands.

Q. Did you take any anywhere else?-A. I cannot say we did not take a few. We hauled to, I suppose, in going and coming out of Canso. Q. At what place did you take any mackerel except at Magdalen Islands-A. None of any consequence elsewhere.

Q. In 1856 were you skipper of the same vessel, and how many trips did you make that year?-A. Two.

Q. How many mackerel did you get the first trip?-A. I think about 300 barrels.

Q. Where were they taken ?-A. In deep water.

Q. Whereabouts?-A. At Bank Bradley and off Gaspé.

Q. How far out?—A. At Banks Orphan and Bradley; we are not always in one position; our position varies 20 or 30 miles.

Q. Were they taken within sight of land?-A. In sight of Purse's Hill.

Q. Did you get the whole 300 barrels thereabouts?—A. We went to Magdalen Islands for water and tried for mackerel, but caught very few. Most of them were caught where I have mentioned.

Q. During the second trip of 1856 how many mackerel did you get?— A. About 200 barrels.

Q. Where were they taken ?-A. At Magdalen Islands.

Q. Were any of those taken inshore?-A. I don't think so.

Q. In 1857 how many trips did you make?-A. Two.

Q. How many barrels did you get the first trip?-A. About 300.

Q. Where were they taken?-A. At Banks Bradley and Orphan and down at Magdalen Islands.

Q. Was any portion of the catch of the first trip in 1857 taken inshore?—A. I think not.

Q. How many barrels did you get the second trip?—A. I think about 200.

Q. Where were they taken ?—A. At Magdalen Islands, and in the fall we took about 40 barrels in Cape North Bay.

Q. Were they taken inshore at Cape North Bay?-A. Yes. They were taken up in the bay, within perhaps three or four miles of the beach, with half that distance from the shore on the north side, North Cape.

Q. In 1858 what were you doing?-A. Mackereling in the bay.
Q. How many trips did you make?-A. Two.

Q. How many barrels did you get?-A. I think about 250 barrels the first trip.

Q. Where were those taken ?-A. At the Magdalen Islands and northward of the Magdalens.

Q. What do you mean by northward ?—A. When we lose sight of Purse's Hill, as we call it, we call ourselves to the northward of the Magdalen Islands.

Q. Did you get the fish up toward Seven Islands?-A. We got them at Seven Islands.

Q. Did you fish there at Seven Islands ?-A. Yes; and we came to Cape St. Anne on the south side.

Q. When you fished at Seven Islands, how did you catch mackerel ?— A. With boats.

Q. With dories?-A. In stern boats and little Nova Scotia boats with round bottoms.

Q. Did you catch the fish inshore there?-A. Yes, inshore.

Q. Did you fish in the middle of the river there?-A. No.

Q. Why not?-A. It is rough and mackerel don't bite.

Q. Because the current is too strong?-A. The current is strong and mackerel won't bite.

Q. So when you say fishing was done between Seven Islands and St. Anne, you don't mean that it was done in the middle of the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. No.

Q. But over in the bay at St. Anne and the bay at Seven Islands?— A. Yes, we anchored and went in small boats round the rocks.

Q. Did you fish that way at St. Anne as well as at Seven Islands?— A. Yes.

Q. All the fish you caught during that first trip in 1858 up at Seven Islands and between there and Cape St. Anne, were caught inshore ?A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember what portion of your first trip was so taken ?— A. I think about 70 barrels.

Q. Where were the rest taken ?-A. At the Magdalen Islands; we fished round and up to Purse Hill that trip.

Q. Did you fish inshore during the first trip in 1858, at any place except at St. Anne and Seven Islands?—A. No.

Q. Take the second trip of 1858, where did you fish?—A. At the Magdalen Islands and off Margaree. I caught some few off Margaree. Q. Were those taken off Margaree caught inshore?-A. I suppose we were outside of three miles. Three miles is very near at Margaree. Q. And the second trip you caught 150 barrels?-A. Yes.

Q. In 1857 did you made two trips?-A. Yes.

Q. How many did you get the first trip?-A. 300 barrels.

Q. Where were they taken ?—A. Most of them at Magdalen Islands. Q. Any elsewhere?-A. No.

Q. On the second trip how many did you take?-A. I think about 150 barrels.

Q. Where were they taken?-A. At Magdalen Islands, most of them.

Q. Did you take any fish, during that autumn trip, at what is called Fisherman's Bank ?-A. Yes.

Q. Where is that?-A. It is about in a line from Port Hood to Georgetown, off Cape St. George to the eastward.

Q. It is on Cape Breton shore?-A. Yes.

Q. How far from any land is Fisherman's Bank?-A. I think about 10 miles.

Q. In 1860 did you make a trip?-A. One trip.

Q. Where did you go?-A. To the Magdalen Islands.

Q. How many barrels did you take?-A. About 260.

Q. You were fishing in the bay every year from 1855 to 1860 inclusive? -A. Yes.

Q. And in those six years you made eleven trips, two trips a year every year, but the last ?—A. Yes.

Q. You appear to have caught 2,635 barrels, or 240 barrels a trip. How many barrels was the vessel fitted for ?-A. Four hundred and eighty barrels.

Q. How many men did you take?-A. Sixteen.

Q. When you were fishing for mackerel, did you ever take any off Prince Edward Island ?-A. No.

Q. Did you ever go into any of the harbors of Prince Edward Island? -A. Not while fishing. I have been there coasting. I have been at Charlottetown coasting.

Q. All your fishing in the gulf was away from Prince Edward Island? -A. Yes; I never caught fish within 25 or 40 miles of it.

Q. How late in the season have you been at the Magdalen Islands?— A. To the last of October.

Q. Do you regard the Magdalen Islands as a safe place to fish?-A. Perfectly safe.

Q. Is the water there still or blowy?—A. I don't know that we have not more blowy weather there than in other parts of the bay at some seasons. As a general thing it is more blowy.