Q. What makes it safer to fish there?-A. Because when it is coming on windy you can hoist your jib and run round to the lee.

Q. Was there any harbor to which you used to resort for shelter when fishing for mackerel; if so, what was it?—A. Port Hood late in the season; but, as a general thing, I have gone under the lee of Magaree

Island.

Q. By your statement, the great body of your mackerel have been. caught much more than three miles from any shore?-A. Yes.

Q. Is that true even of your fishing at Magdalen Islands?-A. Yes; we anchored sometimes under Bryon Island.

Q. Since 1860 you have not been fishing?—A. No.

Q. In early life what trade did you learn?-A. Sail-making.

Q. Did you go to making sails after you quit fishing in 1860 ?-A. Yes.

Q. Perhaps you can tell the Commission what a suit of sails for a Gloucester mackerel schooner costs-what was the cost before the war? A. About $450.

Q. What does a suit cost now?-A. It costs perhaps more; about $500.

Q. How often does a vessel require a new suit of sails, take from the time the vessel is built?-A. A vessel comes out this season and the fall following she must have another set of sails.

Q. When she gets the second suit of sails does she continue to use the first suit also ?-A. Yes, in the summer season.

Q. Then she has a summer set and winter set?-A. Yes.

Q. Then every two years afterwards she will want a new set?—A. Yes.

Q. How long did you continue in the business of making sails after you left fishing?-A. Till 1868.

Q. What have you been doing since?-- A. I was in the fish business up to within two years ago.

Q. Have you been interested in fishing vessels since 1863?-A. Yes. Q. Up to what time?-A. Up to the spring of 1876.

Q. In how many vessels have you been interested?-A. Five.

Q. And how many owners have there been?-A. Three part of the time, and during the last three years two.

Q. You sold out the vessels?—A. Yes.

Q. When?-A. In the spring of 1876.

Q. Between 1868 and 1876, what were those vessels doing?—A. Fishing.

Q. Where?-A. At George's, Western Banks, and Grand Banks. Q. For cod?-A. Yes, aud for fresh halibut.

Q. Were any of those vessels in those years going for mackerel ?—A. We made three trips in the bay or for mackerel. One vessel went one year and two vessels went another year.

Q. Did you make or lose money on those three trips?-A. I think we lost money.

Q. How much?-A. I could not tell you.

Q. Did those vessels lose?—A. Yes.

Q. Did the captain and crew make anything?—A. No.

Q. Then the voyage was so poor that not only the vessel lost, but the captain and crew made nothing?-A. They got very few mackerel.

Q. Did the captain and crew lose?-A. They got nothing or very little for their time.

Q. Do you regard the privilege of fishing within three miles of the shore in British waters for mackerel as of any value?-A. No.

Q. Where have your cod-fishing vessels obtained their bait; have they bought any ?-A. Yes.

Q. At what places ?-A. At Eastport, Campobello Island, Shelburne, Prospect, and all down the coast, and at Newfoundland.

Q. What do you say as to the profitableness of cod-fishing vessels going in from the fishing-grounds to buy bait?-A. I have no doubt at all it is an injury to us.

Q. Explain why.-A. The vessels lose one-half their time.

Q. Do you mean half their time?-A. More than half their time. It takes a vessel to go to the Grand Banks with a fishing-crew and get 150,000 fish, three or four months. More than one-half of that time they are going away seeking bait.

Q. Is that necessary, or do they do it because they prefer it to fishing?-A. There may be some inducement in the good spirit, good drink, in this country.

Q. Do you think they come in unnecessarily ?—A. I do.

Q. And you prefer your vessels not to go in and buy bait?—A. Yes; and to take salt bait from home.

Q. Did your cod-fishing vessels fish with trawls or hand-lines?—A. With trawls.

Q. I think you had a couple of vessels seized?-A. Yes.

Q. What was the first one?-A. The schoouer Helen Maria, in 1852. Q. Where was she taken ?-A. In Publico Harbor.

Q. What was the name of the captain ?-A. Captain Finney, belonging to Argyle, Nova Scotia.

Q. What did you understand she was seized for?-A. She was taken by Captain Cowie. She was detained about eight weeks, when word was sent to us to come and take our vessel.

Q. Was there any trial ?—A. No.

Q. Was that a cod-fishing vessel ?-A. Yes.

Q. Had you any other vessel seized?-A. The White Fawn.

Q. Where was she seized?-A. At Campobello Island.

Q. What year was that ?-A. The fall of 1870.

Q. She was restored after trial?-A. She had no trial.

Q. The White Fawn?—A. She had no trial.

Q. Do you remember who the judge was?-A. I forget the judge's

name.

Q. Who was the counsel conducting the prosecution ?--A. Mr. Tuck. Q. You say there was no trial; did you not employ a lawyer?— A. No.

By Mr. Weatherbe:

Q. When did you last fish yourself?-A. In the fall of 1860.

Q. Where did you fish that year?-A. On Banks Bradley and Or phan and north of Magdalen Islands.

Q. How many barrels did you catch ?-A. About 380.

Q. In 1859, how many barrels did you catch during the season ?—A. About 450.

Q. Where did you catch them?-A. At Magdalen Islands.

Q. Altogether?-A. At Magdalen Islands and on the west shore, at Gaspé.

Q. On the first trip, where did you go when you first entered the bay-A. I went to Banks Bradley and Orphan.

Q. How long did you fish there?-A. I do not remember the number of days.

Q. What proportion of time did you spend on Bank Bradley-one

AWARD OF THE FISHERY COMMISSION.

half!-A. We would fish there till our water ran out, perhaps ten days or two weeks, and then we would go to the shore.

Q. Where to?-A. To Magdalen Islands. I went twice, I think, to the shore.

Q. What proportion of your trip did you catch on Bank Bradley ?-A. I could not tell you.

Q. Can you give any idea?—A. No.

Q. You fished at Gaspé in 1859?-A. Yes.

Q. Where did you fish ?-A. I fished so that I could see Purse's Hill.

Q. How long did you fish there?—A. Till I got my trip.

Q. Have you ever been farther north than that?-A. Yes.

Q. Have you fished on the other side of the river Saint Lawrence?A. I did that same year.

Q. Where did you fish?-A. At Seven Islands.

Q. You fished there once?-A. Yes, along the coast.

Q. On the south side of the river at where?-A. Cape Saint Anne. Q. How many different seasons did you fish there?-A. Only one. Q. Where did you catch the fish at Cape Saint Anne; how far from the shore?-A. About one mile.

Q. How many did you catch there?-A.. About 70 barrels up the gulf. Q. How long were you in getting those 70 barrels -A. We might have been there three weeks.

Q. What did you catch on the north side of the river Saint Lawrence?. -A. We caught 70 barrels up the gulf.

Q. On both sides?-A. Yes.

Q. You only were one season there?-A. Yes.

Q. In 1857 where did you catch your fish?-A. To the northward of the Magdalen Islands and on Banks Bradley and Orphan.

Q. Did you fish every year at Magdalen Islands and Banks Bradley and Orphan?-A. Yes.

Q. And fished at no other places?-A. No.

Q. At any time?-A. In the fall I did. I caught a few mackerel at Margaree Island one fall.

Q. Generally speaking, you caught your fish at three places, Magdalen Islands and Banks Bradley and Orphan?—A. Yes.

Q. There were some exceptions?-A. Yes.

Q. Tell me what the exceptions were ?-A. I caught a few mackerel at Cape North Bay in 1857.

Q. North of Cape Breton Island?-A. Yes. Cape North Bay is marked on the chart as Aspee Bay.

Q. How often did you fish there?-A. We fished there and caught 40 barrels. We were there some three or four times.

Q. During how many years?-A. One year.

Q. With the exception of Banks Bradley and Orphan and Magdalen Islands, you fished, as you have shown us, on both sides of the St. Lawrence one year and one year north of Cape Breton Island?-A. Yes. Q. Tell me any other place.-A. We took a few mackerel at Margaree one fall.

Q. Did you try any other year?-A. Yes; as we have gone around we have heaved to.

Q. Except heaving to, you never tried to fish there?-A. I have fished off there seven or eight or ten or twelve miles out. There is a bank out there where we frequently go.

Q. Is it Fisherman's Bank?-A. No. Cove Island.

Margaree is marked as Sea

Q. Is the bank to which you refer on the west coast of Cape Breton ! -A. Yes.

Q. You did not confine yourself to the island, but fished off the coast?-A. We tried all along there.

Q. Along the west coast of Cape Breton ?-A. Yes.

Q. How often did you try ?—A. We tried when we went there; I cannot tell how often. When night overtook us we would heave to.

Q. Did you ever fish within three miles of the shore there ?—A. I would not swear that I have not, and I would not swear that I have, because distance is so deceiving. I would presume I have not.

Q. I mean three miles of the land, either island or mainland ?—A. I should think I have, and I would not swear that I have, within three miles of the island.

Q. Are you aware that the best fishing is within three miles of the land?-A. No; I am not.

Q. At that place?-A. No.

Q. Have you tried in there?-A. Yes.

Q. Have you given it a fair and thorough trial?-A. I never frequented there so much as some other vessels.

Q. Have you given it a fair and thorough trial?-A. I cannot say that I have.

Q. You never fished at Prince Edward Island?—A. Never.

Q. Previous to 1854, how many years did you fish ?—A. Three years. Q. You were not permitted to fish within three miles of the shore then?-A. In 1854 we were not.

Q. In 1855 were you ?—A. I was not there in 1855.

Q. How many years were you there when you were prohibited from fishing within three miles of land?-A. While I was skipper of a vessel we could fish anywhere we saw fit.

Q. You don't know what lee-bowing boats means? You perhaps never heard the word lee-bowing before?-A. Never in my life. Boats generally fish at anchor. To lee-bow a boat it must be under way.

Q. You don't know anything of the extent of the boat-fishing in any of the places you have been ?-A. It was not very extensive in those days.

Q. Do you know the statistics in regard to the number of boats engaged in the mackerel fishery ?-A. No, I do not.

Q. Have you a son who has been fishing ?-A. Yes.

Q. How many years has he been fishing?-A. I really could not tell you. He went fishing some few years previous to the war, then he went to the war, then he came home and went fishing a year, and he has been to China and California.

Q. What is his name?—A. George F. Friend.

Q. He is not here?—A. No.

Q. Had you any Nova Scotia fishermen with you when fishing?A. Yes.

Q. Will you give the names of any?-A. I had a fellow of the name of Powers.

Q. Do you know where he belonged?-A. Somewhere on this shore; I cannot tell the place. I think it was Prospect.

Q. Do you know of any other?-A. A fellow of the name of Mitchell. Q. Where did he belong?-A. Port Hood.

Q. What years was he with you?-A. About three years. I think he was with us the second, third, and fourth year.

Q. What year was Powers fishing with you?-A. I could not tell you

Q. Can you tell me where you were fishing when Powers was with you?-A. No; I could not tell you the year.

Q. You cannot tell in what part of the bay you caught your fish when Powers was with you?-A. No.

Q. Cannot you give the Commission any sort of idea?—A. No.

Q. Not where you caught most of them?-A. No.

Q. Did you catch the largest part at Margaree when Powers was with you?-A. I could not answer the question.

Q. I ask you to remember if possible?—A. It is impossible.

Q. Is it impossible for you to say whether, when Powers of Prospect was fishing in your vessel, you did not catch most of the fish at Margaree-A. I could not say.

Q. Within three miles of the shore?-A. I could not say.

Q. Did you carry cod-fishing gear with you when you went mackerelfishing-A. No.

Q. Not at all? you never caught any codfish on those trips?—A. Just to eat; nothing else.

Q. Have you ever been in Bay Chaleurs?-A. No.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. What do you understand by the phrase "lee-bowing"?-A. When one vessel gets up a school of mackerel and a neighbor comes along and sees the vessel catching them, and being too lazy and not wanting to waste his bait, he goes round very close to the vessel and heaves out a little bait, and drifts off and gets the mackerel to follow his vessel.

By Mr. Weatherbe:

Q. I understood that you did not know what lee-bowing boats was, and that you had not heard the phrase?-A. I said I had not.

Q. You never heard of lee-bowing boats?-A. If you will give me an idea of what you call a boat, I will be better able to answer you. Q. Have you ever heard of lee-bowing boats ?-A. No.

Q. You understand the question?-A. I understand it perfectly. I never heard of it.

Q. You know what a boat means?-A. They sometimes call our fishing-smacks of 70 or 80 tous boats. If you mean fishing vessels of 75 tons, I tell you, yes.

Q. Of boats smaller than that, you never heard it ?-A. What we would term boats, no.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. Explain what you mean by boats.-A. Small boats, such as they have on Nova Scotia shore and some parts of Maine, of five, six, or seven tons.

By Mr. Weatherbe :

Q. These are what you call boats?-A. Yes.

Q. You never heard of vessels lee bowing them?—A. No.

By Mr. Foster:

Q. Explain why.-A. Because they fish to an anchor.

By Sir Alexander Galt:

Q. Could you not do the same with a boat fishing to an anchor as with a boat drifting? If a boat is at anchor catching mackerel, cannot a vessel run in, throw out bait and drift off and take the fish with it?A. No; vessels of 70, 80, or 100 tons cannot run in alongside of boats fishing to an anchor. There are the wind and tide to contend with. The