with fresh bait while it lasts, I consider that if you take salt bait and go down to fish on the Bank, and take your time, you will do decidedly better with it.

Q. Does fresh bait take the fish quicker than salt bait ?—A. You will catch a few more fish while it lasts, but it only keeps a short time.

Q. You think that it is not advantageous to go to Newfoundland or on the coasts of Nova Scotia for fresh bait?-A. Yes.

Q. And your principal reason for arriving at that conclusion is, that it gives an inducement to your people to take spirits?-A. I said that it was such an inducement; but another fact is, that the vessels which carry salt bait get more fish and the best trips.

Q. Then salt must be better than fresh bait?-A. No; it is the time that is to be considered. A Nova Scotia schooner, owned partly in Gloucester and partly by a man named Goodwin, does better every year with salt bait than other vessels which have fresh bait.

Q. Why do you cast a reflection on your own people, and say that they are reduced by spirits to be idle?-A. I did not do so. More than one-half of the time is lost in going in for bait.

Q. Are you aware of any drafts having been drawn on you for fresh bait-A. This may have been the case and it may not.

Q. You know of no drafts having been made on you for fresh bait?A. I do not swear that there have been, but I have no doubt that our vessels have gone in for bait.

Q. You have no idea of vessels going in from the Grand Bank for bait, obtaining it, and returning to the bank in fifteen days; on what do you base your opinion?-A. I say so because bait is not always plentiful.

Q. But you have never been in for bait?-A. No; but I have heard people say so. I have heard a good many people say so. I have heard a good many people state the time they have lost by going in for bait.

Q. Suppose you were told that a vessel could go into Newfoundland for bait and return to the Bank in 72 hours, would you not then consider that such a privilege was a very useful advantage ?-A. I discredit the whole story.

Q. But suppose it were the case?-A. If a man was on oath and swore to it, I would not believe him.

Q. But suppose it was the fact?-A. should doubt the truth of the statement.

Q. If it was so, would you consider it an advantage to be able to go in for fresh bait -A. No; I told you, and that is my candid opinion, given without any prejudice whatever, that our vessels would be decidedly better off if they used salt bait.

Q. Even if they could get fresh bait by running into Newfoundland and returning to the fishing ground in 3 days?-A. It is impossible to do that.

Q. But merely suppose it was true?-A. When you suppose an impossibility, I cannot answer you. I cannot answer such a question as that.

Q. But suppose that you could do so in three or four days, what would you think?-A. I do not know how to answer such a question.

Q. Do you refuse to answer?-A. I cannot answer such a question; it looks to me as if it was absurd to think of a man doing so in that time. I cannot answer it so as to be satisfactory to myself.

Q. You cannot give an opinion on this subject under those circumstauces-A. No, I cannot.

Q. When speaking with reference to the number of mackerel-fisher

men now in the bay from Gloucester, you mean those in the bay, those off your own shores, and all?-A. Yes. I stated that we had 200 mackerel-catchers employed. There are about 40 in the bay out of the 200.

No. 19.

CHARLES HENRY ORNE, master-mariner and fisherman, of Glouces ter, called on behalf of the American Government, sworn and examined.

By Mr. Trescot :

Question. How old are you?—Answer. Thirty-five.

Q. How long have you been fishing ?-A. Eight seasons.

Q. As a sharesman or master?—A. As master.

Q. Were you fishing previously?-A. Yes; some.

Q. When did you begin fishing?-A. When a boy 9 years of age I went on my first trip.

Q. And you fished ever since until you became master?—A. Yes; more or less.

Q. When did you become master?—A. In 1864.

Q. You have been engaged mainly in the mackerel fishery ?—A. Yes. Q. What did you do in 1864?—A. I was in the schooner Joseph Storey, of 55 tons register, and I went into the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Q. How many trips did you make that year?—A. Three.

Q. Where did you make the first one?-A. At the Magdalen Islands. Q. What was your catch?—A. Two hundred and seventy or 280 barrels.

Q. Were they taken entirely around the Magdalen Islands?-A. Yes. I presume some were caught that trip within the 3-mile limit.

Q. Where was your second trip taken?-A. At the Magdalen Isl ands.

Q. What was your catch then?-A. Two hundred and fifty or 260 barrels, or thereabouts.

Q. Did you fish inshore a little sometimes off the Magdalen Islands! -A. Yes.

Q. What proportion did you so catch?-A. I would not like to give an estimate; I do not think I could come anywhere near the real number. Q. Where was your third trip taken?-A. Between East Point, Prince Edward Island, and Cape George, principally.

Q. You did not fish off the Cape Breton shore that year?-A. I caught all my third trip this first year, 1864, there, off Margaree Island. Q. How many did you catch that trip?-A. Two hundred and forty barrels.

Q. What did you catch within the limits on this trip?—A. The land is very high there and I had no means to determine the distance, but I should judge we caught three-quarters of that trip within the limits. Q. What did you do in 1865?—A. I was in the same vessel in the gulf.

Q. Where did you go?-A. To the Magdalen Islands.

Q. What did you catch?-A. About a usual trip-260, 270, or 280 barrels, or thereabouts. That was about a full trip for the vessel.

Q. What did you catch within the limits?-A. I have no doubt that we took 30 barrels.

Q. Where did you make your first trip that year?-A. I think off North Cape and on Bank Bradley.

Q. What did you catch?-About a full trip. Probably 240 or 250

barrels.

Q. Where did you go for your third trip?-A. I think we caught it between the Magdalen Islands and Cape Breton.

Q. What did you catch ?-A. A full trip-270 or 280 barrels.

Q. Did you catch them off shore ?-A. Yes, off Entry Island, one of the Magdalen Islands.

Q. Where were you in 1866?—A. In the Gulf of Saint Lawrence, in the same vessel.

Q. How many trips did you make that year?-A. Three.

Q. Where did you make your first trip?-A. At the Magdalen Islands. We obtained about a full trip.

Q. About how many did you get?-A. 280 barrels.

Q. How about the second trip?-A. I think it was made off North Cape, Prince Edward Island.

Q. What was your catch?-A. 250 barrels.

Q. Did you then fish within 3 miles of the Prince Edward Island shore; and, if so, what did you catch ?-A. I often tried in there on that trip from North Cape down, but I do not think that I caught much inshore. I am pretty sure that I did not.

Q. Do you recollect the number you so caught?—A. I think it was 15 or 25 barrels.

Q. Where were you in 1867? A. In the gulf, in the Julia Grace.

Q. What did you take on your third trip in 1866?-A. It was what I call a mixed trip, being caught in different places. I fished off Prince Edward Island, and went from thence to Cape George and Fisherman's Bank and I think farther down, though I am not positive on this point. I caught the trip principally at the places I have named.

Q. How many did you get?-A. About 230 or 250 barrels, I think. Q. And in 1867 you were in the Julia Grace?-A. Yes.

Q. What was her size?-A. She was of 62 or 64 register-62, I think. Q. How many trips did you make that year?—A. Two.

Q. Where did you take the first?-A. About the northern part of Bank Bradley and over towards Point Miscou. It was a broken trip. We got 130 or 140 barrels.

Q. What did you obtain on the second trip?-A. 230 or 240 barrels. Q. Where did you catch them?-A. We took a portion between the Magdalen Islands and Cape Breton and some over about Cheticamp. Q. Did you fish much within the 3-mile limit?-A. I think that we caught some there near Cheticamp. We may have been within the 3mile limit there.

Q. What proportion of the 240 was taken within the limits?-A. A small proportion. I hardly know what to set it at.

Q. Where were you in 1868 ?-A. In the same vessel, in the gulf. Q. How many trips did you make that year?—A. Two.

Q. What did you take on the first trip?-A. It was a broken trip. We got 150 barrels or thereabouts.

Q. Where were they caught?-A. I think to the nor'ard or about North Cape.

Q. And the second trip ?-A. It was a mixed trip-caught in different places. Some were caught at the Magdalen Islands and some, I think, off North Cape.

Q. Do you recollect the quantity you took?-A. It was something over 200 barrels.

Q. Were you fishing in 1869?-A. Not in the bay. I was banking. Q. When did you again fish in the gulf?-A. In 1873.

Q. What vessel were you in that year?-A. The J. F. Huntress, (4 tons.

Q. How many trips did you make?-A. We made only one that year. Q. What was your catch and where was it taken?-A. It was 343 barrels, caught wholly at the Magdalen Islands.

Q. What did you do in 1874 -A. I was in the John Storey, jr. We made one trip that year. It was taken partly to the nor'ard and partly down Prince Edward Island.

Q. What sort of a trip did you make?—A. It was a small one-150 or 160 barrels, I think.

Q. What did you do in 1875 ?-A. I did not do anything that year. In 1876 I was in the gulf, in the Jamestown, 69 tons. We made a broken trip, catching 126 barrels, of which 90 odd were taken at the Magdalen Islands and the remainder about East Point-between that and Fisherman's Bank.

Q. This was all your fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. Yes. Q. Have you had any experience in mackerel-fishing on the coast of the United States?-A. I fished there one year only; this was in 1872. Q. What sort of a trip did you make?—A. I made different trips, and packed during the season 530 barrels. I made short trips.

Q. A great deal of fishing is done from Gloucester, on the United States coast ?-A. Yes.

Q. You have had some opportunity of forming an opinion, from your own experience in the gulf and on the American coast and from that of your neighbors, and how do you think that the gulf and United States coast fisheries compare?-A. I do not suppose that they differ a great deal; but of late the comparison is in our favor as to the shore fishery, though years ago the gulf mackerel ruled higher than our shore mackerel. Still I should not suppose that there is any great difference between them.

Q. Do you think that the American coast fishery affords ample room for the successful prosecution of the fishing business for those who go there?-A. Yes.

Q. It is, besides, less costly fishing than fishing in the gulf?—A. I presume that it is. There is not so much time wasted on our coast in making trips.

Q. With your experience of the Gulf of St. Lawrence fishery, do you consider that the privilege of fishing within the 3-mile limit there is of any great value to us? I do not now refer to the Magdalen Islands, but to the rest of the coast.-A. I do not; judging from my own experience and the amount of fish that I caught inshore, I do not think that exclusion from fishing within the 3-mile limit would keep me out of the gulf any year when I felt disposed to go there.

Q. As a matter of profit as concerns your industry, you would rather have the restoration of the $2 duty on the fish that comes from abroad to compete with yours than the privilege of coming inshore in British waters to fish?-A. Yes.

Q. Has the number of mackerel-fishing vessels in the Gloucester fleet increased or decreased since you have been engaged in the fishing busi ness?-A. That is a difficult question to answer. I do not know that it has varied any.

Q. I mean vessels employed entirely in the gulf mackerel fishery?— A. O, that has diminished vastly.

Q. How many mackerel-fishing vessels from Gloucester do you sup pose are in the gulf this year?-A. I should say that there are 50.

Q. And within your experience what has been the number which has come up to the gulf?—A. I have been there when from our port there

were 200 vessels and upwards. I presume that this was in 1864 or 1865 or 1866.

Q. The decrease has been steady?-A. The number has been dimin. ishing. There were 30-odd sail in the gulf last year from our port. I do not know the exact number now in the bay, but it is a very small fleet.

Q. Were you Bank fishing from 1868 to 1873 ?-A. Yes.

Q. How did you supply yourself with bait when you were cod-fishing on the Banks-A. Well, one year-the first year that I went bankingI took clams from Gloucester. This was in the spring of 1865. I took my own bait from Gloucester, caught my trip of fish, and went home. I never saw land, in my remembrance, from the time I left until I returned.

Q. How long were you out on that trip?-A. I left home on the 7th of March and made two trips between that date and the 27th of June. I do not remember the length of time I was on my first trip.

Q. And the bait which you took out lasted you on each occasion ?A. The first did, but during my second trip I caught my own bait. Q. What did you catch-A. Herring.

Q. During your fishing there, were you in the habit of going at all to Newfoundland to buy bait?-A. I have been there of late years. Q. Have you made a practice of it late years?-A. I went in for bait. the second year I went there.

Q. What is your opinion as to the respective value of the two systems? Would the fisherman do better if they fished with the salt bait which they may carry to the Banks and trusted to supplying themselves with bait there or in St. Peter's, or by running into Newfoundland for bait?-A. I think that the former is the best, after they get into the habit of using salt bait. I do not know, however, that they would find it so the first year; but I think that this would be the case after they got into the habit of using salt bait.

Q. Do you consider the vicinity of the Magdalen Islands a dangerous fishing place?-A. No; I do not.

Q. As far as the fishing-ground and the situation of vessels during stress of weather are concerned, would you not consider yourself as safe or safer there than anywhere else in the gulf?-A. I would be fully as safe there.

Q. Have you had any large experience in fishing in the Bight of Prince Edward Island ?—A. Well, I have had very little there.

Q. There is nothing to make the harbors of Prince Edward Island ports of refuge in bad weather preferable to the lee shore of the Magdalen Islands-A. No; for my part I would prefer the Magdalen Islands for such a purpose. One reason for this is that the water about the Prince Edward Island harbors is shoal, and in bad weather it is rough there, though when the water is smooth they are very easy of access. When the water is rough it is dangerous to go into the Prince Edward Island harbors.

By Mr. Davies:

Q. You did not fish very much about Prince Edward Island ?—A. Not a great deal.

Q. How often were you fishing up and down the coast of the island?— A. I was there in 1868, in the Julia Grace.

Q. Is that the only time you fished around the island?--A. I think I was there other years.

Q. Were you there every year more or less?-A. I presume that I have been there every year.