What do you say about that?-A. That is not correct. The vessel was as large as the average then in use. I used to go to Georges Bank in her, and everywhere. I went in her to Georges Bank all the year round, never hauling up in December, January, or at any other time. Q. "We found the fish to be very small, though there were a great many in that quarter." How is that?-A. They were small and they fetched a low price. Q. "In about four weeks we caught one hundred and ten barrels, and having landed them, we had repairs made, and fitting out, came down the bay, where most of the fleet was."-A. That is correct. Q. "We fished between Port Hood and Cheticamp."-A. That is cor rect. Q. "We made all our trip there, and were about fourteen or fifteen days on that part of the coast."-A. That is correct. Q." When we first came to Port Hood we found a cutter in the bay." -A. That is correct. Q. "A large fleet was there, but we did not mind the cutter or anything else."-A. That is not correct. Q. What part of it is incorrect?-A. That which relates to not minding the cutter. We did mind her, for if there had been no cutter there we would have tried inshore. Q. Was there a large fleet there?-A. No, not very large. There were about 30 sail of vessels. Q. "The captain says, 'I am going to have mackerel." Do you remember that?-A. No; I do not. Q. You perhaps know whether you were likely to tell this young fellow of 18 or 20 your plans in that way?—A. I did not do so. Q. "And we got them anyhow; and we succeeded." What do you say to that?-A. We got 130 barrels and that was all. Q. "In a fortnight we had caught two hundred and thirty or forty barrels. We saw the cutter for a few days several times and we kept out of Port Hood Harbor"?-A. We never went to Port Hood after we went down. We made harbor at Margaree Island. Q. "It seemed to be in the harbor of Port Hood almost every night?' -A. Yes; she used to go up there every night unless it was very pleasant, when she would lay off the island. Q. "We anchored under Margaret Island and Cheticamp, and made that a habor"?-A. That is correct. Q. "We lay under the lee of these places"?-A. That is correct. Q. "There were no mackerel outside the three-mile limit”?—A. That is not correct. There were more mackerel inside than outside the limit where the English vessels were, I think. The English vessels would try inshore in the morning, when we would bear up and run out, and along about nine or ten o'clock they would come out where we were, and that made me think that there were no mackerel inshore-not but that there were plenty of them inshore after the gale. Q. "There were not five hundred barrels so caught"? Q. Outside the 3-mile limit?-A. Outside of 2 miles. Q. That was in the year 18527-A. Yes. The big mackerel struck into the shore, though there were many small mackerel outside, but nothing save small mackerel about 7 inches in length. A. That is wrong. Q. "I would say that five hundred barrels of mackerel were not caught by the whole fleet outside "?-A. That is not correct. Q. "We heaved to, and we kept out of the way of the cutter?"-A. We kept out of the way of the cutter because the cutter never troubled us, and that was because we kept outside of the limits. Q. "When we threw bait and there was oil about the vessel, the mackerel followed her outside"?-A. I forget such things as those. Q. "There were schools of small mackerel in this part, but of big mackerel we could not get one outside; in order to catch any fish we had to get inshore against the bank, very close to Cape Breton"?A. That is wrong. Q. "We had to watch our chance to get in, when the cutter was out of the way, in order to catch our mackerel" ?-A. There was no chance of getting inshore at all. Q. "In 1852 we got shipwrecked running ashore at Souris"?—A. That is correct. Q. "We crossed to the island. We made 230 barrels"?—A. That is not correct. Q. "Our main object was to charter a British vessel and put some of our experienced fishermen on her, so as to fish without any fear of the cutters"-A. I never thought of such a thing. Q. Did you ever speak of such a thing to any human being ?-A. No. Q. Had you the means to charter an English vessel?-A. No. Q. And after your vessel was wrecked you say that you sent for the underwriters and came home?-A. Yes. Q. What did you do with your 130 barrels of mackerel ?—A. I shipped them home in another vessel. Q. Did you try to fish any more up here that year?-A. No. Q. Did you make any arrangements to do so that year?-A. No. When that gale of wind commenced everybody got kind of frightened. The water was stirred up and thick, and we all gave up and went home. By Mr. Davies: Q. I think you said that the $2,000 which you put down for the expenses of the vessel includes everything for wear and tear, rigging, supplies, insurance, and other vessel expenses?-A. That is only a rough guess. Q. But that is your estimate?-A. I think that it would be about that; if you reckon in the charter it would be about $1,000 more. We paid $1,000 for chartering a vessel that year. Q. This $1,000 would be additional if you chartered a vessel ?—A. Yes. Q. You mentioned in your items of expense salt and provisions?-A. Yes. Q. And $300 or $400 for rigging, wear and tear?-A. Yes. Q. Do you include these items in the $2,000?—A. I think that would cover them. By Mr. Foster: Q. What wear and tear do you mean ?-A. A vessel on a four months' trip in the bay wears out sails and rigging; and if you charter a vessel and pay $1,000 for it, the charterer does not pocket $1,000 clear, as he has to keep his vessel in repair, which will cost $300 or $400. By Mr. Davies: Q. Would not $250 a month be a fair price for the charter of a fishingschooner?-A. I think so. By Sir Alexander Galt: Q. You have had a great experience in these matters; and I would like to ask you whether you do not think that $2,000 is not a little too high for the purposes in question ?-A. I do not know but what it is. Q. How many men would there be on board a vessel ?--A. We carried from 15 to 22 in the Wildfire and Blue Jacket. The cost of salt and bait mounted up to a pretty figure then, though this is not now the case. Q. One of the witnesses has told us that salt costs 90 cents a barrel ? -A. That is now; but in the war times salt was high as well as everything else. Q. Would you put down for provisions for the crew about $1.50 a week per man?-A. Well, I guess that would not be far out of the way. No. 22. The Conference met. THURSDAY, September 27, 1877. AARON RIGGS, master-mariner, of Gloucester, Mass., was called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined. By Mr. Trescot: Question. How old are you?-Answer. 57. Q. How long have you fished in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. When I first went there, I was 15 years old. Q. How long have you been going there as skipper?-A. I first went as skipper in 1845. Q. In what vessel ?-A. The Deposit. Q. What was your catch that year?—A. 130 barrels. Q. Whereabouts were they taken?-A. We fished on Bank Bradley. Q. That was the only trip you made that year?-A. Yes. Q. And you caught all your fish on Bank Bradley ?-A. Yes. Q. Were you in the bay in 1847?—A. Yes; in another vessel. I was not the skipper Q. When did you go to the bay again as skipper?-A. In 1854. Q. Where were you fishing in 1847, '8, and '9?-A. I was fishing on our shore. Q. What sort of fishing did you have there during those years, as a general rule?-A. Well, we had pretty good fishing; one year we got between 600 and 700 barrels. I was not skipper at the time. Q. When did you next go into the Gulf of St. Lawrence?-A. I was there in 1854. Q. Were you not there in 1850 ?-A. Yes; in 1850 and 1851 I was in the bay, but I was not skipper. Q. What vessel were you in during 1850?-A. The Gazelle. Q. Where did you fish?-A. We caught our fish between Point Escuminac and North Cape. Q. What did you catch?-A. We made 2 trips, and caught 240 or 250 barrels on the first and 175 barrels on the second. Q. Did you fish inshore on any of those occasions?-A. No; not within 3 miles of the shore. Q. Were you in the bay in 1851 ?-A. Yes; and made two trips. Q. At what distance from it?-A. Ten or 15 miles, and maybe 20 miles. Q. Were you in the bay in 1852 ?-A. No. Q. Or in 1853 ?-A. No. Q. Were you there in 1854-A. Yes. Q. Where did you then fish?-A. About all over the bay. I could not tell you exactly where we got our fish that season; mackerel were then pretty scarce. I was in the Ohio at the time. Q. What was your catch ?-A. Two hundred barrels. Q. What proportion of these 200 barrels was taken within the 3-mile limit?-A. About 20 barrels, I think. The cutters were round then, and we did not fish inshore at all; I do not know that we got any fish inshore that year. Q. In what vessel were you in 1856-A. The Leading Star. Q. Where did you fish in her ?—A. Over at the Magdalen Islands. Q. What did you catch ?—A. About 230 barrels. Q. In what vessel were you in 1857 ?-A. The Ellen Francis, I think. Q. Whereabouts did you fish?-A. We got them to the nor❜ard of the Magdalen Islands-between there and Bank Orphan. Q. In what vessel were you in 1858?-A. The Ellen Francis. Q. Where did you fish?-A. We fished some off Point Miscou, Bank Orphan, and Gaspé Bank. Q. During how many years from 1857 on did you fish in the gulf? You did so in 1858, 1859, and 1860, and up to what time?-A. The last time I was fishing there was in 1875; I was not skipper at the time; but we did not stop in the bay at all that season. Q. You fished in the bay in 1858, '9, and 1860, '1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, '9, 1870, '1, '2, '3, '4, and '5 ?—A. Yes; but I was not skipper either in 1873 or 1875. Q. You were skipper all these years, 1873 and 1875 excepted?-A: Yes. Q. Without going into the trips particularly, state where you fished, when on these trips, as a general rule.-A. We caught the biggest part of our fish at the Magdalen Islands, and we took about 200 barrels down off Margaree. Q. During that time, as your recollection serves you, what proportion of your fish did you take within the 3-mile limit?-A. I could not say that we caught more than one-twelfth part there while I was in the bay. Q. What was the best fishing which you did during that time?—A. We always did our best fishing over at the Magdalen Islands. I got as high as 140 wash-barrels, or about 125 barrels at one time, and 900 barrels during my best trip these years. Q. When was that?-A. In 1864. Q. In what vessel were you at the time?-A. The Galena. Q. How many trips did you make that year?-A. We only made one trip before we landed 300 barrels in the gut. We carried them all home ourselves. Q. And that year you caught 900 barrels ?-A. Yes. Q. What was the nearest approach that you made to that catch during the other years?-A. The next year we got 650 barrels. Q. Where were the 900 barrels mostly taken ?—A. To the nor❜ard of the Magdalen Islands. Q. And the next year you caught 650 barrels ?-A. Yes; we got 350 about northwest and about 75 miles from East Point, Prince Edward Island. Q. With your experience of the fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, do you attach much value to the privilege of fishing within the 3-mile limit?—No; I do not. I never caught any fish within that limit save very few. Q. When fishing in the gulf, what was your experience with regard to the safety of fishing about the Magdalen Islands?-A. Well, I call that the safest place there is in the bay for fishing purposes. I was once caught in the bend of the island and I did not fancy it. The vessel went ashore, but nevertheless we got out of our difficulty safe. Q. Do you know the number of mackerel-fishing vessels which are now in the gulf from Gloucester?-A. I do not. Q. Do you know, speaking generally, whether the number of these vessels from Gloucester is now larger, or as large as or smaller, than it used to be ?-A. O, it is smaller. Q. With your experience, which would you rather have, $2 per barrel duty levied on fish which competes with yours or the privilege of coming within the three-mile limit in British waters?-A. Well, I should rather have the $2 duty. By Mr. Davies: Q. I see you have a memorandum; did you make it up in order to give in your evidence?—A. I made it up for the years during which I was fishing. Q. In 1850 you were in the Gazelle ?-A. Yes; but I was not master. Q. In what vessel were you in 1851 ?—A. In the Leading Star; but I was not master. Q. What did you catch ?—A. On both trips we got between 300 and 400 barrels. Q. In 1854 you were in the Ohio?-A. Yes. Q. And in 1856 you were in the Leading Star?-A. No; I was in the John. Q. Where were you in 1857 ?-A. I was in the Ellen Francis. Q. And in 1858?-A. I was then in the Leading Star. Q. What did you take that year?-A. 230 barrels. Q. And in 1857 ?-A. I was in the bay two trips that year; we got 230 barrels on the first and 175 barrels on the second. Q. In what vessel were you in in 1859?—A. The Leading Star. Q. What was your catch?-A. 260 barrels. Q. And in 1860?—A. I was then in the Anglo Saxon. Q. What was your catch?-A. 300 barrels. Q. And 1861 ?—A. I was then in the Anglo Saxon. Our catch was 300 barrels. In 1862 I was in the Ellen Francis; our catch was 200 barrels. In 1863 I was in the Weather Gauge; catch, about 500 barrels. In 1864, in the Galena; catch, 900 barrels. In 1865 I was in the River Dale. Q. Are you sure whether it was in 1864 or 5 that you were in the Galena-A. It was in 1864, I am positive. I will take my oath to it. Q. How many did you catch in 1865?-A. 650 barrels. Q. In what vessel were you in 1866 ?—A. The John Bright. Q. What was your catch ?-A. 750 barrels. Q. In what vessel were you in 1867 ?—A. The Alaska. Q. What was your catch?-A. About 500 barrels. We made two trips. Q. In what vessel were you in 1868 ?—A. The Rush Light; our catch was 300 barrels. I was also in her in 1869, when our catch was about 300 barrels. In 1870 I was in the same vessel; and our catch was about 270 barrels. In 1871 I was in the same vessel; our catch was a little short of 200 barrels. In 1872 I was in the same vessel, and our catch was about 250 barrels. Q. In what vessel were you in 1873?-A. I cannot think of the name. I was not skipper at the time. |