Q. And 1874?-A. I was not in the bay that year.

Q. Were you in the bay in 1875?—A. Yes; in the Martha C., but we did not stop, as we did not get any mackerel at all.

Q. How long did you remain in the bay?—A. Three weeks, I think. We tried to seine, but we did not get any fish at all.

Q. Who was captain of the Galena when you were in her ?-A. I was. Q. Do you know Captain Beatton ?-A. Yes.

Q. Did you know him when he was captain of the Galena ?—A. Yes; it was in 1865 when he was captain of that vessel.

Q. Did you see him in the bay in 1865 ?-A. Yes.

Q. Do you know what he caught that year?-A. No, I do not recollect.

Q. Or where he caught them?-A. No.

Q. Was Joseph Beatton, of West Point, in the Galena the year you. were captain of her ?-A. No.

Q. You said you fished all over the bay some years?-A. Yes; we fished in different parts of it.

Q. Have you fished at all about Seven Islands?-A. No; I never fished there.

Q. It is a fishing ground for some fishermen ?-A. I suppose so.

Q. Have you heard American captains speak of it as a fishing ground?-A. I have heard them speak of catching mackerel there. I heard James Pattilo tell about catching mackerel there.

Q. He is an American captain?-A. He has been one, but he was not one then. He used to belong up here in Nova Scotia somewhere. Q. Did he fish in American vessels?-A. He has fished in them. Q. Did you ever fish along the Gaspé shore about Bonaventure?—A. I fished along about northwest of Bonaventure-just in sight of it. Q. You never fished close in there?-A. No.

Q. Do you know whether any of the fishing fleet fish about there at times?-A. The vessels that do so are very scattered, I guess.

Q. Have you heard fishermen speak of it as a fishing ground?—A. It used to be such.

Q. And is now, for aught you know to the contrary; you have not been there to test it?-A. No; not of late years.

Q. There is a celebrated place which has been frequently mentioned before the Commission-the Bay of Chaleurs--have you ever been there?-A. I have been up there, but I never caught any mackerel there.

Q. Did you ever try there?-A. Yes; off Paspebiac.

Q. Perhaps you fished only in the center of the bay; did you come within the three-mile limit there?-A. No.

Q. And therefore you did not catch any fish ?--A. No.

Q. I do not wonder at that?-A. At what?

Q. Your not getting any fish there?-A. There were none there. Q. If you did not go inshore to try, I do not see how you know that; did you try within three miles of the shore there?-A. No; but I saw the boats fishing, and they did not get any. I spoke to them.

Q. How often were you in the Bay of Chaleurs, when you saw boats fishing there?-A. I do not suppose that I have been there more than three times in my life.

Q. And when there you only tried beyond three miles from the shore-A. Yes.

Q. And got no fish?-A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever try along the West Shore, on the New Brunswick

coast? A. Yes.

Q. That is a rather noted fishing ground, is it not?-A. Yes, I have tried in there pretty handy.

Q. Not when the cutters were about, I hope ?—A. No, we did not do so then.

Q. When the cutters were away, you tried there?—A. When I had a license I tried in there.

Q. And how did you succeed then?-A. We could not find any mack. erel inshore there, save what the boats catch, and those I call eel-grass mackerel.

Q. But you did not catch them?-A. No.

Q. Therefore you did not even get eel-grass mackerel there ?—A. We did not get any.

Q. During the years when you had a license you did try in along the West Shore, and were not successful?-A. One year we did so, and one year we did not, catching all our mackerel that season over at the Magdalen Islands.

Q. And the year you tried in there, you did not catch any fish at all! -A. We never caught any fish in there.

Q. Even when you had a license?-A. No.

Q. Vessels frequent that fishing ground at times?-A. They go all over the bay.

Q. You have heard of that place as a fishing-ground?-A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever try around Prince Edward Island -A. No, not that

year.

Q. Or any year?-A. Yes, I have tried around Prince Edward Island a good many times.

Q. We have evidence of the fleet going there to fish up and down the shore of the Island ?-A. I never caught but very few mackerel round Prince Edward Island. I took them just in sight of land, ten miles off.

Q. Did you come nearer to the shore then ten miles ?-A. I have hove to within one mile of it, but I never caught any fish.

Q. You hove to and drifted off?-A. Yes. I drifted as much as five or six miles off.

Q. Were other vessels doing the same thing when you were there?— A. Yes.

Q. Were there many of them?-A. There might have been a dozen or twenty sail.

Q. Within sight of you ?—A. Yes.

Q. Off what particular part of the island did you try?-A. Up between the First and Second Chapel.

Q. Toward East Point?-A. Yes. The First Chapel is about nine miles from there, and the other is about fifteen miles up.

Q. I understand that the ground between the First and Second Chapel is a good fishing ground; has it that reputation ?-A. I never found it to be so.

Q. Have you heard it so spoken of among American fishermen ?—A. Yes; I have heard folks speak of it; but it is not such a good fishing ground as the Magdalen Islands. It does not begin to be like the Magdalen Islands.

Q. Have you heard of the ground between First and Second Chapel spoken of by American captains or fishermen as being a good fishing. ground?-A. Yes; along about the middle of September I have heard of them getting spurts of mackerel there.

Q. The fleet goes there every year, more or less ?-A. Some vessels do so, and some do not.

Q. Have you fished up off Rustico and New London, and Malpeque

and that part of the island ?-A. I have caught mackerel about 15 miles from New London Head.

Q. You were not fishing within three miles of the land there?-A. No; I was from 10 to 15 miles off shore.

Q. Did you never come inshore and drift off there when you had a license?-A. When I had a license we never tried inside of the threemile limit. The first year I had a license I only tried two or three times there, and then went over to the Magdalen Islands and Bank Bradley. Q. You never tried off Tignish ?—A. No.

Q. Nor off North Cape?-A. No.

Q. Then, with one exception, when you tried inshore between the two Chapels, you never went within three miles of the shore at Prince Edward Island to fish? Will you make that assertion before the Commission ?—A. I never caught any fish there within the three-mile limit. We might have been within this limit, but I do not think that we were. Three miles on the water is a short distance.

Q. When you were or might have been within three miles of the shore there, did you catch any fish?-A No. We drifted seven or eight miles off.

Q. And you caught fish 7 or 8 miles off shore ?-A. Yes.

Q. Did you draw mackerel with you from the shore?-A. The mackerel were not there in the first place when we hove to.

Q. Did you ever hear of vessels coming within 1 or 13 miles of the island, throwing out bait, drifting off and catching fish?-A. I never did -save as to boats.

Q. Did you ever hear of American vessels running in to within 2 miles or 1 miles or a mile, or about that of the island shore with the object of fishing, throwing out bait, and then drifting off, fishing as they went?A. No.

Q. You did that once yourself off Two Chapels -A. I hove to and drifted off, but we did not get any mackerel until we were 6 miles off. Q. And from 10 to 20 vessels were then doing the same thing?—A. Yes.

Q. How often did you repeat that practice the same year?—A. We might have done so that day once or twice, and then we ran off to some other place.

Q. It was only one day during which you tried it?-A. Yes.

Q. And you have only had one day's fishing within 3 miles of the shore of Prince Edward Island?—A. Yes.

Q. You are quizzing me about the 3-mile limit.-A. No, I am not.

Q. Had you more than one day's fishing within 3 miles of the island coast-A. I do not think that I did.

Q. And you never caught any fish within 3 miles of Prince Edward Island-A. I never did, round the Island.

Q. Not even the day you went inshore near Two Chapels and drifted off?-A. No. I call it six miles off where I caught fish then.

Q. Then you only tried once inshore off Prince Edward Island ?—A. Yes. We were then within or about three miles off, I calculate.

Q. In all your fishing experience, that was the only time when you tried within three miles of the Prince Edward Island shore -A. Yeswithin what I call three miles.

Q. Your three miles must be the same as mine?-A. Of course.

Q. Is there any difficulty in telling when you are three miles off the island coast ?-A. I never measured it save with my eye, and I never calculated getting within three miles of the land, especially when the steamers were there.

Q. Especially when the cutters were there?-A. Well, I never did so; they used to run up and down, three miles off shore, and we used to fish outside of that.

Q. During the whole term of the Reciprocity Treaty, or nearly so at all events, you were fishing in the Bay of St. Lawrence?-A. Yes.

Q. And then you had a right to fish within three miles of the shore ?— A. Yes.

Q. Do I understand you to say that during this period you never fished within three miles of the island coast ?-A. Yes.

Q. I understand you to say that ever since you have fished in the bay, you never fished within three miles of Prince Edward Island, with one exception ?-A. Yes.

Q. Is there any doubt in your mind as to where the three-mile line runs?-A. It is hard to tell where it runs unless you measure the distance. When you do so with your eyes, you have to go by your judg. ment.

Q. In point of fact, Captain Riggs might have been within the threemile limit, but did not think that this was the case?-A. I do not think that he was.

Q. Might you have been ?-A. I might have been if I measured it; I suppose you could not tell anything about it.

Q. You might have been; but you did not measure it; and I suppose that you would not be very particular about it if you were catching fish-A. As long as we were catching fish I did not trouble myself about it, since I knew that we were six miles off shore. The steamer used to run up about three miles off shore, and we always used to fish outside of her.

Q. But there was no steamer so running during the Reciprocity Treaty?-A. No; but we never fished round there during that time. Q. When you had a right to go inshore and fish you did not go?—A. No.

Q. You have fished about the Cape Breton shore?-A. Yes.

Q. This would be towards the fall of the year?-A. Yes; I got the biggest part of a trip there.

Q. When do the mackerel strike the Cape Breton shore ?-A. In October.

Q. Do the fleet fish much there in October ?-A. They used to do so; but of late years they have not caught any fish there at all.

Q. Have you tried of late years there?-A. No.

Q. Have you been there of late years?—A. No; not since 1867.

Q. Then you cannot tell whether fish are caught there or not?-A. Well, I have never heard of anybody catching them thus.

Q. But before that you did?—A. Yes.

Q. Did you catch your whole fare there?—A. Not quite.

Q. How many barrels did you take there?-A. About 200.

Q. When was this?--A. In 1867.

Q. Was that the only time that you ever caught fish there ?-A. Yes. Q. Perhaps it was the only time you ever tried there ?-A. No.

Q. Did you try there every year?—A. No; I may have been there a dozen times from first to last. I cannot speak more particularly on this point.

Q. Do you believe that you have tried there a dozen times?—A. I have done so for mackerel, but I never got any there save once.

Q. And that was when you caught about 200 barrels there?-A. Yes. Q. You never caught any at all there on the other occasions ?—A. No; I don't recollect of having done so.

Q. Where did you try there ?-A. We used to try all the way up and down. We used to catch all our mackerel between East Point and the Magdalen Islands.

Q. Did you try in Cape North Bay ?-A. No.

Q. Name the places where you tried.-A. We did so about Cheticamp and Margaree.

Q. Is this the place where you think you tried about twelve times?— A. Off and on, yes, at different times.

Q. How close to the shore did you try ?-A. Sometimes five and sometimes four miles off.

Q. And you never tried within the three-mile limit except once ?—A. I do not think that I did.

Q. And then you caught 200 barrels?-A. We caught them outside of the three-mile limit, I expect; they were taken at a place called Broad Cove.

Q. That is to the southward of Margaree ?-A. Yes.

Q. How far from the shore were you when you caught 200 barrels there?-A. We might have been 2 or 3 miles or so off.

Q. You just told me that you did not catch any within the three-mile limit?—A. I do not think, however, but that we were three miles off. Q. What, then, do you mean by telling me that you caught them 23 or 3 miles off?-A. Some we got outside the limits and some inside. I cannot tell exactly or give a fair statement about it; I never measured the distance.

Q. We know that no fisherman measures it; but, as an experienced mariner, you are able to form a judgment on the matter. Now tell us frankly what proportion of the 200 barrels you caught within the threemile limit.-A. It might have been 150.

Q. And the rest might have been taken outside?-A. Yes.

Q. And that was the only time when you fished there within three miles of the shore?-A. It was.

Q. And for a very short time you fished 4 or 5 miles off the Cape Breton shore and caught nothing?-A. Yes; we just tried, but did not fish in there because there were no fish there.

Q. And you have been fishing all these years in the bay, and you have never tried but once within three miles of the Prince Edward Island coast-A. Yes.

Q. You never fished in the Bay of Chaleurs or off the West Shore, within three miles of the coast, and never but once within three miles of the Cape Breton shore. How often did you take out licenses,?-A. Twice.

Q. Why did you take them out?-A. I did so at the request of the owners, else I should not have taken them out.

Q. Who were the owners?-A. George Norwood was the owner of the John Bright.

Q. Why did the owners do so? They must have known that you never caught any fish within the three-mile limit.-A. They wanted to be safe. Cutters were round, and they did not know where we would fish. I told them that it was of no use, but they insisted on it, and so I took them out.

Q. If you always fished around the Magdalen Islands, and in the center of the Bay of Chaleurs, and on Bradley and Orphan Banks, where no cutters were, why did you want licenses?-A. Well, that did not make any odds. If they told me to take them out I had to do so. I told them where I commonly fished, but they said they wished licenses to be taken out.