Q. When the answer was favorable did you run over?-A. Not generally; we kept around the Magdalens.

Q. When you heard it reported that they were doing well, although you were making such very small catches in the gulf, did you not run over? -A. What particular year do you mean?

Q. I don't care what year.-A. We never fished in Prince Edward Island the latter part of the season.

Q. But you have given us your catches ?-A. Yes.

Q. Do you wish this Commission to understand that when you heard the fishing was good at Prince Edward Island you would not go?—A. Of course I would go if I knew there was better fishing.

Q. Did you never know it was better fishing until '74?-A. Never inshore.

Q. Did you ever hear of good fishing in the Bay Chaleurs ?—A. Very little; in the spring we would sometimes.

Q. Then it would surprise you also to know that a large number of the fleet were in the habit of frequenting Bay Chaleurs?-A. I have been there myself.

Q. Why didn't you give Bay Chaleurs among the places where you had fished?-A. We never fished there, but probably staid a day or two, and came out. I have been there in the course of my being skipper twice. One season we fished at the mouth of Bay Chaleur, at Miscouon Miscou Bank.

Q. Did you ever fish in Bay Chaleur within three miles?—A. I never did.

Q. Therefore you never saw any fish there? When you fished outside you never caught any fish in the Bay Chaleur ? When you fished within three miles in the bay did you catch any fish?—A. I never did, only a few, because we never fished there.

Q. You told me you were there one season?-A. I didn't say so; I said on Miscou. I recollect for instance catching a few half-way between Miscou and 15 wash barrels.

Q. You say your business on the American coast used to be better than it is now. You said you were on the American coast from 1843 to 1854, and that it was a better business then than now. You fished on the Georges Bank. You call that the American shore?-A. That is 135 miles off.

Q. In 1842, when you commenced to fish, Gloucester, you say, had no fleet to speak of?—A. It was very small.

Q. Was it a small town in 1842?—A. I could not say how large it was then. It is 19,000 now. I can tell you something about the business of the town.

Q. Can you give us an idea of what it was then?-A. The population then might be 3,000 and it might be 6,000.

Q. It has been built up since then?-A. Yes. I suppose there are six times the fishing firms now that there were then.

Q. The Gloucester fleet now numbers how many ?-A. Somewhere about four hundred sail of fishermen.

Q. Do they frequent the Bay of St. Lawrence?-A. Some of them. Q. Have they been in the habit of frequenting the bay ?-A. Yes; more or less every year.

Q. What number have they averaged 300 or 400?—A. I don't think they have. I don't think over 175 vessels from the bay at one time. But you might know exactly, while I would not.

Q. If you tell me that you have not the means of forming an opinion

that will be the end of it.-A. I should say there were 175 some years in the bay.

Q. Did you ever take means to ascertain whether that is correct or not?-A. No; I judge from what I have seen.

Q. How many have you seen in one spot together?-A. At Port Hood I have seen as many as 200 sail.

Q. Mostly Americans?-A. All descriptions.

Q. Were they or were they not mostly Americans?-A. Probably a hundred and fifty sail were Americans.

Q. What were they doing at Port Hood? I thought you always fished about the Magdalens and Bradley Bank?-A. We don't always. When there is a gale of wind probably

Q. What? Would you leave this fine, safe place and run down in a gale of wind? Would you leave this harbor of refuge and come down to Cape Breton to get a harbor ?—A. No, I did not. They did not run across exactly to make harbor. They gather from different points. Probably they would find the fish scarce, and go in to get fittings and make a harbor.

Q. Could they get fittings there?-A. They could get anything they want there, water, wood, or any little thing.

Q. What do you mean by fittings?-A. Wood and water.

Q. Do you class them as fittings? Did you mean that when you made use of the word "fittings"?-A. Yes; that is part of the fittings.

Q. Didn't you mean rigging, sails, and things of that kind ?—A. No. Q. Where would they be fishing when they would run into Port Hood?-A. Off Margaree, probably.

Q. Were you among them when they were fishing off Margaree ?—A. Sometimes. In the latter part of the season we would be fishing between Margaree and Cheticamp, and, if it was stormy, work into Port Hood.

Q. In the latter part of the season you would probably be fishing between Margaree and Cheticamp and then work up into Port Hood?A. Yes.

Q. And you say that would probably be the case?-A. Probably it would.

Q. And then not one of them ever was fishing within three miles?— A. It is not very often they fished in so near as three miles. The fish would not attend.

Q. How often have you been fishing between Margaree and Cheticamp-A. Never but very little. I fished there once in the Henry. Q. When were you again between Margaree and Cheticamp?—A. That is all, to my knowledge, I ever fished.

Q. If you have never been there but once how can you hazard the statement that the fish would not be there? How do you know if you did not go there to fish ?-A. I am judging from what I heard from parties. The general report was that they never caught any fish. They fished right off what we call the northeast part of the island.

Q. You knew Captain Layton ?-A. Yes.

Q. He said that with the exception of one time he caught all the fish he took at Margaree within three miles ?-A. Probably he might.

Q. How so, if they are not there?-A. They might be there. As a general thing they are not within three miles.

Q. How do you know if you were not there?-A. Other vessels go in and say, probably, they are not there.

Q. Tell me a man who told you that fish were not taken within three

miles of Margaree ?-A. I have probably heard it a dozen times, but never bring it to mind.

Q. Now, perhaps we can reconcile this. Perhaps your statement can be reconciled with that of Captain Layton. I include, when I speak of three miles, three miles from Margaree Island, as well as three miles from the mainland. Do you mean that?-A. When we fish we fish four or five or ten miles from the back side of Margaree.

Q. When you say they didn't fish within three miles, did you include Margaree Island as well as the mainland ?-A. Of course I did.

Q. You base it upon hearsay ?-A. That is the general opinion. We go by the boats as much as anything else, and they would not go off the northwest part of Margaree for fish if there was any mackerel inshore. It would not be necessary.

Q. How far from shore do they fish? From the island?-A. All the way from two and three miles up towards Broad Cave.

Q. Don't they fish within a quarter of a mile?-A. They come right in, for all I know.

Q. Now, you stated that on your shore you had everything to contend with some years-that the seiners occupied the ground?-A. Yes; the last year I was there.

Q. Why were they a nuisance to you?-A. I have always fished with hook and line, being a little behind the times. I did not care, being along in years-I thought if I could get along without using the seine I would do so.

Q. Why were the seines objectionable?-A. Because they fished where we did. They occupied all the grounds. They were setting seines where we were.

Q. Is the purse seine a destructive kind of fishing or not?-A. It catches the fish up very fast.

Q. Is it destructive to the fisheries?—A. I think it is the worst thing that ever could be for mackerel.

Q. Is it your opinion that it destroys the fishery?-A. I think it does.

Q. It kills a good many fish?-A. Yes.

Q. When a man fishes with the hook he has everything to contend with with the seiners?-A. I think it kills the fish up and makes them

scarce.

Q. Do I understand that in your opinion, it destroys the fishing ground?-A. It makes the fish scarcer, yes.

By Mr. Dana :

Q. In the year 1874 you told me you caught 278 barrels in the first trip; and in the second how many, do you remember?-A. I think somewhere about 200. We packed 498 barrels that season.

Q. How many of those did you catch at the Magdalens ?-A. Very few. I was there once.

Q. State as nearly as you can.-A. I should think twenty barrels. Q. Now, taking twenty from 498 barrels, where were the rest caught? -A. At Prince Edward Island-off around what they call Fisherman's Bank, and East Point the second trip. Once I was at Malpeque Harbor. That is all, but didn't catch any fish that way.

Q. What parts of Prince Edward Island did you say you caught fish? -A. At Fisherman's Bank. That is abroad off Georgetown, some eight or ten miles, some a little farther down, what they call East Point, eastsoutheast from the point, then at Second Chapel.

Q. You were asked some questions about the general opinion as to

licenses or the value of licenses. What do you say was the general opinion of the masters as to having licenses?-A. They didn't think they were any value at all-only to protect themselves in case they were not dealt with just squarely. They thought they were best to be on the sure side.

Q. Now, you have heard this talked over and the reasons given, have you?-A. Yes; I have.

Q. Those who did think it safe to have them, or convenient to have them, didn't consider them really as of much value-A. They thought it would save them from trouble when they came into collision with the cutters. They were uncertain how far they were off.

Q. Now, is it difficult at sea to determine your distance from the land! -A. It is, especially with high land. It is very deceiving.

Q. Explain how that is, and to what extent an honest man, who wishes to know how far he can go with safety to his vessel-I don't mean from cutters-may be deceived by the appearance of the land ?—A. Plenty of men have thought they were within three or four miles when they were not within six or seven.

Q. Take your own experience. If you have high land, have you had experience of being deceived in that way, thinking yourself very near and finding yourself double the distance you supposed?-A. Yes, I have.

Q. Is that common with seamen ?-A. Yes; it is common. The coast of Cape Breton is bold, and at Prince Edward Island it runs up pretty abruptly at Malpeque.

Q. Suppose the land is low, a sandy beach and low-lying country, and you have your vessel near, are you liable to make a mistake, and which way?-A. Well, you can generally tell pretty near how far you are off. Q. If you make a mistake, which way will it be likely to be if the land is low?-A. We would think we were too far off, when we would be too nigh.

Q. Is the liability to mistakes a common and recognized thing?-A. It is. I will state an instance. We were fishing off East Point the last year before the treaty, 1872, was it not? and were catching fish in the morning. I supposed for a certainty I was not much more than three miles off, and I saw a steamer coming along. I didn't know whether I was safe or not. I did not know what to think. I had no license, and felt afraid. When he came along he went outside of us over a mile. Q. Did he say anything to you?-A. He never said a word. Q. And you don't know now whether he was running on the three-mile line or not?-A. He was not running on the three-mile line.

Q. Mr. Davies said your catches in the bay had been very small and yet you had not tried to go inside. Are those catches very small ?—A. No; they are a fair average.

Q. Do you call that catch in 1862, when you caught 290 and 280 barrels, a small one?—A. I do not. That was a good catch.

Q. In 1863 you had 280 and 215. Was that very small?—A. No. Q. In 1864, 284 and 215, how was that?-A. That is the very best year.

Q. In 1865 you had 285 and 215?

Mr. DAVIES. That is not the statement he gave me.

Mr. DANA. Look at 1865. Take the paper or your memory, I don't care which, only give me a correct answer. How many trips did you make in 1865-A. Two.

Q. What did you catch ?-A. I think about 500 barrels.

Q. Is that very small?-A. No.

Q. Take 1866, 280 and 220. That is just 500.-A. That is for the season. That is pretty good.

Q. In 1868 you went in late?-A. I made only one trip.
Q. In 1872 you made one trip?-A. Yes.

Q. In 1873 you took 480 in two trips. Is that a very small catch ?— A. That was a good fair catch in proportion to the rest.

Q. In 1874, so far as numbers were concerned, you had 498 barrels. Is that very small?—A. It was called a very good catch for the season. Q. Now, I have been over every trip from 1860 to 1874. There is no one you call a very small catch?-A. Not for the season. I always got a very fair catch for the fleet.

Q. Now, Mr. Davies having based a question upon that, do you say that the catches have been very small in the bay ?-A. I do not. Always, as a general thing, I got good fair catches of fish.

Q. One point more. You say you went to Miscou Bank. Is that in Bay Chaleurs ?-A. It is not in Bay Chaleurs at all.

Q. Where is it?-A. It lies right off Miscou Point, one of the points of Bay Chaleurs.

Q. Then you don't see any inconsistency in saying that when in Miscou Bank you were not in Bay Chaleurs? You were not up Bay Chaleurs—A. I don't recollect it.

Q. Did you say you knew of no fish caught inside of three miles off Margaree -A. I did not.

Q. Did you say anything like that?-A. No, I said very likely there was mackerel caught within three miles. They might be right on the rocks for all I know, but I never caught any.

Q. One more question. Were you conscious of intentionally evading questions put by Mr. Davies ?-A. I came here to tell the truth. Q. Were you conscious of intentionally evading questions put by him?— A. Not at all. I came here to tell as near the truth as I can tell.

Q. Did you always understand his questions in the form put?-A. No, he talked to me so sharp. It is the first time I was before a court, and it is difficult for a person, especially where a man is trying to bore right into you.

Q. You were supposing the questions to be put for the purpose ?—A. They were put to bother me and disconcert me.

Q. I only asked if you understood his questions?-A. I did not. I know what a cross-questioning means.

Q. Look at the paper and tell what is the correct catch as regards 1865?-A. About 500 barrels.

Q. That is not what is there.-A. In 1865 280 barrels. If I had been asked the years in the bay in succession, I could have given every one promptly, but when you take certain years and cross-examine a person, it is different.

By Hon. Mr. Kellogg:

Q. You spoke of a line from North Cape to East Cape and the distance from the Magdalen Islands down to the deepest bend of Prince Edward Island. What is it ?—A. I think about 22 miles.

No. 24.

JOHN H. GALE, of Gloucester, Mass., packer and deputy inspector of mackerel for the city of Gloucester, called on behalf of the Government of the United States, sworn and examined.

By Mr. Foster :

Question. How old are you?-Answer. Forty-three years.