Q. Where did you take them ?-A. The first trip we caught about half way between North Cape and Pigeon Hill.

Q. Was Pigeon Hill in sight?-A. Sometimes we could see the land. Q. Did you catch any fish anywhere else?-A. We caught all of our first trip there and about that vicinity.

Q. Where did you get the second trip?-A. We took about 230 barrels up the island broad off Malpeque, on what is called the Flat Ground, 7 or 8 miles off Malpeque. We used to run off east north-east, and we were sometimes 10 miles off, perhaps.

Q. There is something like a bank in this part?-A. Yes; we used to call it the Flat Ground.

Q. Did you get any fish anywhere else?-A. Yes, about 20 barrels off Margaree, in the fall, when going home; we finished our trip there.

Q. In what vessel were you in 1852 ?—A. I was in the same vessel up to 1861, which was my last year in her.

Q. You were eleven seasons in her?-A. I was in her in 1851, and from that time up to 1861.

Q. Where did you catch your fish during this period?-A. Our fishing-ground was mostly at the Magdalen Islands and chiefly to the nor'ard, and we used to catch a great many fish about Bonaventure and Bank Bradley, but very few anywhere else.

Q. During nine of these years the Reciprocity Treaty was in force, and you then had a right to fish anywhere?-A. Yes.

Q. Did you then catch any fish within the three mile limit?-A. We did not make a practice of fishing inshore. One thing is, our vessel (the Bloomer) was a kind of long-legged sort of a vessel, drawing 10 feet of water when in ballast; and when she had about 150 barrels of fish on board she drew 12 feet, and so we did not fish inshore very much, though we went in after supplies once or twice.

Q. In about Prince Edward Island?-A. Yes.

Q. Where?-A. Once at Cascumpeque. We got some supplies there from a man named Rider.

Q. In what other place were you?-A. We were in Malpeque twice for supplies.

Q. What sort of harbors are these in time of danger?-A. In those times-I do not know anything about them of late years—it was difficult to get in them when the water was rough. In smooth water a vessel could get in, but, nevertheless, I have seen vessels strike frequently while entering. The last time I was at Malpeque I saw a vessel go ashore, and finally we struck ourselves while going in, and drawing 12 feet of water.

Q. It is not extraordinary for a vessel to draw 12 feet now when half loaded and of the size yours was?—A. No.

Q. After 1861 you left the Bloomer ?—A. Yes.

Q. In what vessel did you next go?-A. The Prince of Wales.

Q. This was in 1863?—A. Yes.

Q. What did you catch ?-A. 942 sea-barrels.

Q. What was her tonnage ?—A. 188.

Q. Where did you catch your fish?-A. We got them all at the Magdalen Islands save 40 barrels, which we obtained at Flint Island, down the Cape Breton shore, and close to Sydney.

Q. Were you then within three miles of the main shore ?—A. Well, we were between the two, and I not know but that we were within three miles of it part of the time. I do not know exactly how far we were off shore.

Q. You were either inside or outside of the three-mile line?-A. Well, I think we were within the three-mile line part of the time.

Q. And you caught 40 barrels ?-Yes; in one day.

Q. Were all the rest taken outside of the three-mile limit?—A. Yes. Q. And then you gave up fishing?-A. Yes; that was my last trip.

By Hon. Mr. Kellogg:

Q. How many trips did you make that year?-A. One; and we obtained 942 sea barrels, packing out, I think, somewhere about 801 or 805 barrels, or something like that.

By Mr. Dana:

Q. You told us you caught all the rest outside the three-mile limit?A. Yes; at the Magdalen Islands.

Q. Have you been halibut-fishing?-A. Yes; I followed it a great while, for twenty years.

Q. Since you left going mackerel-fishing in 1863-A. No.

Q. When did you so fish-A. During all the years I was in the Bloomer. I did so on the coast until we went to the bay. We fished previously in the Bay of Fundy or on the Georges.

Q. George's Bank is a great halibut ground -A. It was then. used to get a good many halibut there.

Q. The halibut is a deep-sea fish? A. Yes, generally speaking. Sometimes they are caught in shoal water.

Q. During nine years you had a right to and to fish where you pleased in the bay, but for some years previously did the fact of cutters being in the gulf make any difference as to your going inside ?-A. No; because we did not trouble ourselves anything about it. In 1851, when I went to the bay on my first trip, the day we got there a cutter seized the schooner Tiber.

Q. But you did not fish inside the three-mile limit?-A. No.

Q. Can you not find out from reports of vessels and from your own observation where the fish are ?-A. Yes.

Q. You keep your ears and eyes open all the time you are fishing ?-A. Yes.

Q. It is not necessary actually to go in and try, if you find vessels leaving a place without catching anything, to discover that this is the case --A. No.

Q. And you have to judge as to the presence of fish a good deal from the reports of others?-A. Yes. A great many men have a choice as to fishing grounds; this is the case everywhere, whether in cod, halibut or mackerel fishing. Some fish one way and some another.

Q. Did you mostly fish for mackerel with hand-lines?-A. Yes.

Q. Which do you think is the safest fishing-grounds for vessels, as regards wreck and loss, in the whole bay?-A. Well, as to an inshore fishing ground, I suppose that the Magdalen Islands are the safest place. I always thought that they were as safe as any other place, with good tackel. I always supposed that Orphan and Bradley Banks were the safest places, because they are off shore.

Q. You have no lee shore to be afraid of there?-A. No.

Q. And you are not obliged to use ground tackle?—A. Yes.
Q. But at the Magdalen Islands you can anchor?—A. Yes.

Q. And you can find a lee there?-A. Yes; mostly any time. I never saw the time yet when I could not find a lee when fishing there. Q. What do you say as to the bend of the island regarding the safety of vessels ?-A. Well, I call the bend of the island a very poor place for a fishing-vessel, as regards safety, especially in the fall.

Q. How is it in September ?-A. During the summer season vessels may fish there, because the weather is a great deal milder in July and August; but about the first of September it begins to get more blowy and windy.

Q. And even in July and August, you would be careful how near you were inshore?-A. Yes. The bend of the island is a very bad place to fish in; it is so regarded, especially when the wind is blowing on shore, because then the tide generally sets in, and makes it very rough there. Q. The tide is subject to that there?-A. Yes.

Q. And that makes it very rough there?-A. Yes. It does that all over the bay.

Q. Do you know anything about the the bar of Malpeque Harbor? Is it stationery or shifting?-A. I do not know save very little about I was only there two or three times. I was there twice one year, and then the bar remained about the same; but since I have heard that it has shifted some. I do not know this personally, however.

it;

Q. Do you know how it is about Cascumpeque ?-A. I never was there but once, and I could not tell you.

Q. That was a good while ago?-A. Yes.

Q. From your experience in the bay-a pretty long one-do you attach much importance to the right of fishing within three miles of the shore? —A. Well, no; I do not think it is of any importance. It never was so

to me.

By Mr. Weatherbe:

Q. What age were you when you left Ketch Harbor?-A. I was then three years old.

Q. You have never lived there since ?-A. No; I have since always lived in Gloucester.

Q. You are married and settled there?-A. Yes.

Q. And naturalized ?-A. Yes.

Q. During all these years when you fished in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, had you a large number of Nova Scotians on board?—A. Sometimes we had some.

Q. We have a long list of such names?-A. Well, that is the case in many instances; but in our case, when I was in the Bloomer, for four or five years we had a crew from home-Gloucester; but we have sometimes had Nova Scotians on board.

Q. You had some of them in the Bloomer?-A. Yes.

Q. Will you give their names?-A. I do not know as I could recollect them all. We had one man named Bryant Rogers of the Gut of Canso, and another called Red Dan, a Scotchman, of the same place. I do not know his real name. Then we had a third, named Hughey McDonald.

Q. In what vessel were they?-A. The Bloomer.

Q. What year was this?-A. I do not know that I could give the year exactly, but I think it was in 1854.

Q. Do you recollect any other names from Prospect or Ketch Harbor? -A. I only had one man from one of these places and his name was John Clancy.

Q. Where is he now?-A. I could not say.

Q. Did he reside in the United States ?-A. No; he went fishing from there for two or three years. He went with me on one trip in the fall, and he then went home.

Q. Was he a young man ?-A. I think he would be now about 35 years old, or perhaps a little more.

Q. He was in the Bloomer?-A. Yes.

Q. When?-A. I think about 1855, but I will not say for a certainty. Q. Can you give us any other name?-A. I do not recollect any other. Q. Whether of men from Halifax County, or any other fishing settlement on this coast, or of Prince Edward Island ?-A. No.

Q. The fishing town of Gloucester is made up mostly of Nova Scotians?-A. A good many of these people are there, and some vessels carry more of them in their crews than other vessels do. Some carry hardly any of them.

Q. The town is made up of Nova Scotians?—A. A great many of them are there.

Q. A great part of its population is Nova Scotians?-A. A good many Nova Scotians live there.

Q. Is the majority of the population Nova Scotians?-A. No.

Q. But is this not the case with the fishermen ?-A. I refer to fisher

men.

Q. Are they not Nova Scotians, or the children of Nova Scotians, or of British subjects?-A. Well, I could not tell the exact number of them.

Q. The majority of them were formerly British subjects, or descendants of persons who were formerly British subjects?—A. I should not think that this is the case with the majority; not more than onethird of them are British subjects.

Q. Were not the majority of the crews that went on Gloucester vessels to the bay, British subjects, or were they not originally so ?—A. A good many were, but I do not know how many-perhaps one-third. I do not know that the proportion is greater than that.

Q. In Gloucester vessels that come into the bay-A. Yes.

Q. It strikes me that the majority of Gloucester fishermen are of British extraction?-A. This may be the case; but I cannot speak for a certainty.

Q. You do not know whether this is the case or not?-A. I could not say. It is some time since I was fishing.

Q. In your experience they were not British subjects?-A. I do not think so.

Q. You told me that very few British subjects were in your vessels? A. Yes.

Q. Very few, indeed ?-A. Yes.

Q. In all the vessels you were in ?-A. I was in one vessel most of the time.

Q. Were there any in the Mount Vernon and Clara S. Storey ?—A. No.

Q. Or in the Prince of Wales?—A. I think we had 4 in her.

Q. Can you give me any names?-A. One of them was named Charles Martin; another Barney Pine, and a third, Warren Guthrie. I do not know that there were more.

Q. Where do they reside?-A. Charles Martin lived at Ketch Harbor; he was born there, but now he is a citizen of Gloucester, and master of a vessel.

Q. Was he a citizen of Gloucester when he was fishing with you?— A. Yes.

Q. Where did the others live?—A. They were citizens of Gloucester, and they lived there at the time.

Q. These others were not in the Bloomer ?-A. No.

Q. You cannot recollect any other names?—A. No.

Q. Can you name any British subjects resident here who were with

you in the years 1854, '7, '8, '9, 1860 and 1861 ?—A. No; save one, John Clancy.

Q. What year was he with you?-A. I think it was along about 1855. Q. Can you give us the names of any such persons who were with you later?-A. We did not have any Nova Scotians with us in 1859, 1860, and 1861.

Q. Or persons from any of the Provinces ?-A. Not that I recollect. Q. Where did you catch your fish in 1853-A. Between North Cape and Kildare, and towards Orphan Bank, and in that direction.

Q. Where did you get them in 1854?-A. Along about the same places. Sometimes we caught some at the Magdalen Islands; that was generally our fishing ground.

Q. Where were you in 1853 ?—A. In 1851 we made two trips, and in 1852, 3, 4, 5, and '6, only one trip each year.

Q. This was because you were fishing for halibut ?-A. Yes-during the first part of the season.

Q. How many did you catch in 1852 ?—A. 230 barrels.

Q. And in 1853 and 54?—A. Well, I could not tell you the exact number of barrels, because we generally came in about the same time in the year, but I guess that we caught somewhere about 240 barrels on each trip. I took it from the books at home.

Q. What did you catch in 1848-A. 250 barrels on the first trip. Q. How many trips did you make that year?-A. Two; we got 260 on the second.

Q. In 1850, how many did you take on the first trip?-A. 300; then in the Alexandria, and we fished up the gulf.

Q. And how many the second trip?—A. 250.

I was

Q. How many did you get during your one trip in 1853?-A. 240 barrels, I think.

Q. And in 1854?—A. It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 230 or 240; that was about the average: I could not give the exact figures. Q. Was your catch 250, or 260, or 270 in 1850?-A. Well, I think it was 250 barrels.

Q. Or was it 270-A. It was not so many as that.

Q. Are you sure?—A. I am sure that it was not 270.

Q. And in 1854 you say your catch was 240 or 250 ?-A. I do not know exactly what it was.

Q. How is it you are so exact about previous years, now 30 years ago? -A. I had it all made up, but I left it down at my house; I made up the average, and I think that it was about 240.

Q. And you made a memorandum of all your catches ?—A. Yes.

Q. You would then remember these catches as well as the others?A. Yes.

Q. How many did you catch in 1855 ?—A. 245 barrels.

Q. And in 1856?—A. I could not give the exact number, though I could tell it if I had my papers.

Q. Can you give me a number anywhere near it?-A. Yes; 240 barrels.

Q. What was it in 1857, '8, and '9?-A. About 240 or 250 barrels.

Q. What was your catch in 1858 ?—A. About 245 barrels.

Q. And in 1859?—A. Somewhere about 240 barrels.

Q. Are you simply guessing the numbers?-A. No.

Q. You told me you could recollect your catches for these as well as for the other years?-A. In 1860 and 1861 we caught somewhere about 245 barrels; that is as near as I can come to it.

Q. This was the case during both years-1860 and 1861?—A. Yes.