Q. Your catches were pretty much all the same?-A. Yes; that was about an average all along, during several years.

Q. You remember where, out of 250 barrels taken in 1851, you caught 20-A. Yes.

Q. And you told us where you caught the balance, and out of 940 barrels you mentioned where you caught 40; now out of 245, where did you catch 45 barrels, for instance? You told us where you caught 20 out of 250?—A. Yes; this was at Margaree Island.

Q. And you remember that since 1851-A. Yes; that was the only time when I did catch any fish there.

Q. And out of 245 taken in 1855, where did you catch part?—A. We caught all our mackerel that year at the Magdalen Islands.

Q. How many did you catch from 1851 to 1861 within the three-mile limit?—A. I shall not suppose that in all these years we took as many as 100 barrels of mackerel within three miles of the shore.

Q. You did not catch 100 barrels inshore?—A. No.

Q. Out of all your catches ?-A. Yes.

Q. Are you sure about that?-A. Yes.

Q. When did you catch them?-A. In 1863, we caught 40 barrels inshore at Flint Island, in the Prince of Wales.

Q. I mentioned the period between 1851 and 1861 ?—A. During these ten years we took 20 barrels at Margaree Island and also a few onceI could not say positively when-off East Point. I could not swear that this was within the three mile limit or not, but it might have been.

Q. And out of all your catches you only took 100 barrels inshore ?— A. I say I could not swear as to this. I have nothing to go by.

Q. Then you do not know what you caught within the three-mile limit except these 20 barrels ?-A. What makes me so distinct about the 20 barrels is because I took them at Margaree Island.

Q. You do not know whether you caught any more within the threemile limit?-A. No. I could not positively take oath to it. There are only 20 barrels that I can swear to.

Q. And you cannot say that you took any more within the three-mile limit-A. No.

Q. That is, you cannot tell where you caught them?-A. Yes. Q. You cannot tell how far off the shore you took your fish ?—A. I can with respect to the Banks and the Magdalen Islands.

Q. Can you tell whether you caught 100 barrels within the 3-mile limit?-A. That was all the mackerel I caught inshore. Some of the

others might have been taken inshore, but I could not swear to it; I could not tell exactly by the eye whether I was 3 or 2 or 23 miles off shore-the real distance might have been within a quarter of a mile of these distances.

Q. You cannot tell because it is difficult to say what distance you are from the shore ?-A. Yes.

Q. And sometimes you fish in a fog?—A. I mean to say that I never fished inshore long enough to know. I have not often fished when there was a fog in the bay, but I have sometimes seen smoke there.

Q. It is difficult to tell whether you are 3 miles from land or not ?—A. By looking at the land-yes.

Q. Then you cannot tell when you are fishing within the 3-mile limit?— A. I am sure that we did not catch any mackerel within this limit except the 20 barrels taken at Margaree Island.

Q. You tell me it is difficult to say whether you are fishing within 2 or 2 or 3 miles of land?—A. You cannot tell the exact distance within

a quarter of a mile with your eye. If we are 5 miles off we would be pretty certain of being 3 miles off shore.

Q. Then you cannot tell save within two miles of the exact distance ?— A. Yes.

Q. It is difficult to tell within two miles whether you are three miles from the shore or not?-A. Well, yes. What makes me give this answer is, I was never accustomed to fish inshore at all.

Q. Did you never fish within five miles of land?-A. I could not say for a certainty. I may have caught some fish within five miles of the

'shore.

Q. Have you caught fish six or seven miles off?-A. Yes.

Q. You have caught them within six miles of the coast ?-A. Yes,

some.

Q. How many?—A. I took nearly one whole trip in the bend of the island, at the place we call the Flat Ground, seven or eight miles off land.

Q. When was this?-A. In 1851.

Q. You then took nearly your whole trip within six or seven miles of land? A. Yes, six or seven.

Q. Was it six or seven ?-A. I could not say.

Q. Will you swear that you did not catch one-half of that trip within five miles of land ?—A. Yes.

Q. Then you are able to tell when you are five or six miles off the coast so as to swear to it ?-A. I cannot state anything definite on this subject.

Q. Are you able to swear that you caught oue-half of this trip within five miles of the shore ?-A. No.

Q. You are not able to swear that?-A. No; we called the distance at which we took them six or seven miles off shore.

Q. You are not able to swear to five miles or not?-A. I am able to swear that we did not then catch any fish within five miles of the coast. Q. You caught them all within six miles of it?-A. We might have been some days 6 or 7 or 8 miles off.

Q. You told me you were able to swear that you caught the whole trip within six miles of the shore?-A. I said six or seven miles.

Q. Could you say you caught the whole trip within seven miles of the coast-A. Yes.

Q. You are sure of that?---A. It was somewhere about that distance; that is as near as I can state.

Q. Then you are perfectly certain that you caught them all within seven miles of the coast?-A. Yes; it was about seven miles from the land.

Q. And you said that you did not catch any within five miles of it ?— A. Yes.

Q. Then you are able to tell within two miles where you caught them?-A. I could say as to seven miles from the land. Some fish might have been taken farther off; but I cannot say for a certainty.

Q. When I asked you if you had caught some within five miles of land, you positively said you did not.-A. And I am positive about it

now.

Q. Did you not a moment ago say that you could not tell whether you were five or three miles from the shore?-A. You can tell that you are five miles off better than three.

Q. Did you say so or not?-A. I said that all I had to go by was my eye.

Q. Did you say so or not?-A. I say that we never fished within five miles of the shore when we caught mackerel.

Q. Did you state that it was sometimes difficult to tell whether you were five or three miles from the coast ?-A. It was so for five or seven miles, I said.

Q. Where did you catch the largest portion of your fish during these ten years, from 1851 to 1861-A. We caught most of them at the Magdalen Islands and on Banks Orphan and Bradley.

Q. Did you catch the most at the Magdalen Islands or at the Banks?— A. We got the most at the Magdalen Islands.

Q. What proportion of your fish were taken there?-A. Two-thirds, I should say.

Q. You did not try to fish within three miles of the coast?-A. No. Q. You never did?-A. No.

Q. Therefore you are not able to say what kind of fishing is to be found there ?-A. No.

Q. You gave as a reason why, during a great number of years-10 at least-you did not catch fish inshore, was because your vessel was longlegged?-A. Yes.

Q. That was the reason?-A. Yes.

Q. Are you aware that on some parts of the coast you can go with a vessel of that size as near the shore as you like?-A. I could not say that this is the case. I never did so. I never tried to.

Q. You were not aware of such places ?-A. No.

Q. And, therefore, you never tried to fish in there?-A. No.

Q. Are you able to say how many vessels Cascumpeque Harbor will shelter?-A. No. I went in there merely for wood and water; and we also bought a few provisions there. Only three vessels were in it at the time.

Q. You are not sufficiently acquainted with Malpeque Harbor to give it any character one way or the other?-A. No.

Q. You do not know how many fathoms of water are to be found at its entrance?—A. Well, when we were there I recollect that we sounded and we found about 12 feet.

Q. Are you able to say that this was at the deepest place?-A. No; we went, however, as near mid-channel as we could, where the buoy

was.

Q. It was only during your last fishing year that you fished close inshore near Sydney?-A. Yes; I was not master of the vessel at the time. John McQuinn was master.

Q. You had been master on previous trips?-A. Yes.

Q. For how long?-A. I was in the Bloomer the whole time that I was master.

Q. Were you master during all those years?—A. Yes.

Q. And as soon as you went with McQuinn you went near Sydney to fish-A. Yes.

Q. How long were you catching the 40 barrels?-A. They were taken during one day.

Q. And if you had been master, you would not have gone there at all?-A. I might have gone there; we were bound home at the time. Q. He was acquainted with the place?-A. Yes.

Q. And he had always fished there?-A. I do not know that. We were going southward, when some vessels raised mackerel and we caught there 40 wash-barrels in one day.

Q. Between daylight and dark?-A. We got them all between 8 a. m. and 2 o'clock in the afternoon.

Q. I suppose that if you went that way again you would try there?— A. It would depend on how I felt; if I was not in too much of a hurry to get home I might.

Q. If you had a license, you would do so?-A. It would depend on circumstances.

Q. What objection would you have to try there?—A. If I had a fare, as we had, I might go home, if there was a fair wind; and if I happened to be there, and could pick up four or five barrels, I might stop to catch them.

Q. Where did you catch the balance of the trip?-A. Between East Point, Magdalen Islands, and Bird Rocks.

Q. How near East Point were you?-A. I should say that we were four, five, six, or seven miles off. We used to heave to four or five miles off East Point, and drift down toward Bird Rocks.

Q. You would go in to within four or five miles of the coast?-A. We might do so, but that would not be very often. Some days we would heave to within four miles of the shore.

Q. Did you always endeavor to stop four miles off?-A. Well, I do not know as I could tell exactly when we were four miles off.

Q. You would endeavor to fix the distance at about four miles, and you studiously avoided coming in closer when you ran in to commence fishing?-A. Well, I do not know that. We might go farther in shore, but I have never known that we did go any farther in.

Q. Did you avoid going any farther in ?-A. I do not know that we paid any particular attention to that matter.

Q. You would not mind whether you were four miles off or closer in? Had you any objection to being closer in?-A. I had not. I was not master of the vessel.

Q. Did you never fish that way in the same place when you were master?-A. It was a very rare thing that we ever fished so near as within four or five miles of the Magdalen Islands. I never stopped at one place for a whole voyage save at these islands.

Q. You never fished so close the shore as that?-A. Sometimes we did. We fished within five miles of Bird Rocks.

Q. And within four miles of them?-A. Well, yes.

We used to

Q. But you did not generally run in so close?-A. We might have done so. I could not tell exactly how far off we fished. catch our fish on different days in different places.

Q. You were asked whether you would not have your ears open and your understanding to know where other people caught their fish, and your answer was that some people had their choice?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. That is to say that some people have their choice to fish in certain places and others in different places?-A. Yes.

Q. And that is the only answer you gave. I suppose you did hear where others were fishing. Have you given a full answer?—A. I have given a full answer.

Q. You must have heard where others have fished ?-A. Of course if a man gets a full trip on Orphan Bank he will go there agaiu.

Q. He does not care where others have fished ?-A. No.

Q. Then it is possible that some fish altogether in one place, and some altogether in another place?-A. Well, I don't know anything about that; I only know my own experience.

Q. Then you can give no idea where fish are caught except your own actual experience?-A. Well, I know where people have said.

Q. That is just what Mr. Dana asked you. I want to take the same ground that he did, that your ears were open and you understood. Your

answer was simply that some had their choice?-A. If I spoke a vessel and he said there was a good prospect at Bradley, I should go there. If he said there was good fishing on the Magdalens, I should go there.

Q. I thought your answer was that some would have their choice; that no matter what they heard, they would still go to the same places ?—A. I would go where I got good catches the year before.

Q. Then you didn't hear of others fishing in other places?-A. I have heard of them fishing at Bradley, and Magdalens, and up the gulf.

Q. Those are the places you went yourself?—A. I know. I have heard of them catching off the island and Margaree.

Q. And Cape Canso?-A. No; not Cape Canso.

Q. Bay Chaleurs ?-A. I never was up there.

Q. I was not asking you that, but whether you heard of vessels being there?-A. Yes; I have heard of vessels being there.

Q. And at Gaspé ?-A. Yes.

Q. Up above Gaspé ?-A. Well, I have heard of vessels catching mackerel there.

Q. Both sides of the St. Lawrence, close inshore?-A. Not close in. I never was there.

Q. Well, never mind whether close in or not-in the mouth of the St. Lawrence?-A. I don't know that I ever heard of any. I don't recollect any time.

Q. You have heard of fishing on the shores of the island, Margaree, Bay Chaleurs, and Gaspé ?-A. Yes; I have heard.

Q. Did you hear of them being caught on both sides of the river, at the mouth ?-A. No.

Q. At Seven Islands?-A. Not to catch a trip there.

Q. Above Seven Islands?—A. I never heard of it. We spoke a vessel that had been there, but had caught nothing. I have heard of vessels trying there. I don't know whether they caught anything or not. Q. Now, Mr. Dana put it to you whether the bend of the island was a very dangerous place; I think you gave him an answer with regard to some month-A. I said it was worse in the month of September or October than in the summer.

Q. Was your answer confined to that month? What about July and August?-A. Well, if a vessel saw fish there I suppose they would fish. It is very seldom that we have a gale in July or August, although we do have them.

Q. It was not on account of the danger that you kept away ?—A. No. Q. The danger had nothing to do with your fishing?—A. No.

Q. You never kept any account so far back as 1838 or 1839 of what proportion of fish were caught within in any year ?-A. I recollect particularly about 1838. There was a few mackerel caught in Pleasant Bay. We did not know anything about inshore fishing at that time. It was not understood at that time.

Q. Now, I don't want to trouble you with reading any opinions, but about what time was it ascertained that the mackerel-fishing was inshore?-A. I could not tell.

Q. At the time you mentioned it was not known that it was an inshore fishery at all?-A. No; not to my knowledge.

Q. It was after it was ascertained that it was an inshore fishery that you heard of a difficulty about the limit?-A. Yes.

By Mr. Dana:

Q. I wish to ask you with reference to the last question when you ascertained that the mackerel fishery was an inshore fishery ?-A. I stated it was not in the year 1838.