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This picture reinforces the Taguba Report, which quotes Sergeant Davis as saying that he witnessed prisoners in the MI hold section, Wing 1A, "being made to do various things that I would question, morally.” He quoted the MI folks as saying, “loosen the guy up for us, make sure he has a bad night, make sure he gets the treatment.” He further stated that the wing belonged to MI, and it appeared that MI personnel approved of the abuses.

Now, in the Taguba Report itself, General Taguba says the following, and this is his finding, that “military intelligence interrogators and other U.S. Government agency interrogators"--which I assume includes CIA—"actively requested that MP guards set physical and mental conditions for favorable interrogation of witnesses," and that personnel assigned to the MP company and brigade were "directed to change facility procedures to set the conditions for military intelligence interrogations.”

My question to you is, what were those changes that were made, and was it proper to make changes of the kind that General Taguba refers to?

Secretary RUMSFELD. The conclusions you seem to have drawn in your question, Senator Levin, are issues that I believe are probably all being addressed in an investigation that was initiated last month. I think it's called the Fay Investigation possibly you, General Smith, who have been involved in this, would want to comment.

General SMITH. Sir, there has been an investigation that was initiated in mid-April by Major General Fay, and it is to look into exactly those allegations.

Senator LEVIN. All right.

Secretary Rumsfeld, would you agree that people who authorized, or suggested, or prompted the conduct depicted in the pictures that we've seen, as well as those who carried out the abuses, must be held accountable? That anybody who authorized, knew about, prompted, or suggested, in the Intelligence Community or otherwise, that conduct must be held accountable? That's my very direct question to you.

Secretary RUMSFELD. The pictures I've seen depict conduct and behavior that is so brutal and so cruel and so inhumane that anyone engaged in it or involved in it would have to be brought to justice.

Senator LEVIN. Would that include anybody who suggested it, prompted it, or hinted at it directly or indirectly? I just want to know how far up this chain you're going to go. Are you going to limit this to people who perpetrated it, or are we going to get to the people who may have suggested it or encouraged it?

Secretary RUMSFELD. That is exactly why the investigation was initiated, and that is why it's being brought forward. We'll find what their conclusions are, and I'm sure they will make recommendations with respect to prosecution.

Senator LEVIN. But in terms of the standard, does anybody who recommended or suggested, directly or indirectly, that conduct in order to extract information in your judgment, if that occurred, Secretary RUMSFELD. Certainly, anyone who recommended the kind of behavior that I've seen depicted in those photos needs to be brought to justice.

Chairman WARNER. Thank you, Senator.
Senator LEVIN. My time is up. Thank you.
Chairman WARNER. Senator McCain.
Senator McCAIN. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

I come to this hearing with a deep sense of sorrow and grave concern. Sorrow after the shock and anger of seeing these pictures for the first time, that so many brave young Americans who are fighting and dying are under this cloud. I attended the memorial service of Pat Tillman, a brave American who sacrificed his life recently. He and others, unfortunately, at least in some way, are diminished by this scandal.

I'm gravely concerned that many Americans will have the same impulse I did when I saw these pictures, and that's to turn away from them. We risk losing public support for this conflict. As Americans turned away from the Vietnam War, they may turn away from this one unless this issue is resolved, with full disclosure, immediately.

With all due respect to investigations ongoing and panels being appointed, the American people deserve immediate and full disclosure of all relevant information so that we can be assured and comforted that something that we never believed could happen will never happen again.

Now, Mr. Secretary, I'd like you to give the committee the chain of command from the guards to you, all the way up.

Secretary RUMSFELD. I think General Myers brought an indication of it, and we'll show it.

Senator McCain. Thank you. I'd like to know what agencies or private contractors were in charge of interrogations. Did they have authority over the guards? What were their instructions to the guards?

Secretary RUMSFELD. First, with respect to the
General MYERS. We did not bring it.
Secretary RUMSFELD. Oh, my.
General MYERS. Yeah, oh, my, sir.

Secretary RUMSFELD. It was all prepared.
General MYERS. It was, indeed.
Secretary RUMSFELD. Do you want to walk through it?

Senator McCAIN. Well, anyway, who was in charge? What agency or private contractor was in charge of the interrogations? Did they have authority over the guards? What were the instructions that they gave to the guards?

General MYERS. I'll walk through the chain of command and

Senator McCain. No, you can just submit the chain of command for the record, please.

Operational Chain of Command (before 19 Nov 03)

Hon. Donald Rumsfeld
Secretary of Defense

GEN Abizaid


LTG Sanchez
Commander Joint Task Force 7

MG Wojdakowski
Deputy Commander CJTF-7
Supervised 800ch MP BDE


BG Karpinski,
Commander, 800th Military Police (MP) Brigade

LTC Philabaum,
Commander, 320th MP Battalion
Abu Ghraib Camp Commander


CPT Reese
Commander, 372nd MP Company

Responsible for Cell Block 1A

Operational Chain of Command (after 19 Nov 03)

Hon. Donald Rumsfeld
Secretary of Defense

GEN Abizaid


LTG Sanchez
Commander Joint Task Force 7

MG Wojdakowski
Deputy Commander CJTF-7

Supervised 2054h MI & 800ch MP BDES
BG Karpinski,

1 Commander, 800ch MP BDE

COL Pappas
Commander 205th Military Intelligence (MI) Brigade

Abu Ghraib Camp Commander

[blocks in formation]

Secretary RUMSFELD. General Smith, do you want to respond?

Senator McCain. No, Secretary Rumsfeld, in all due respect, you have to answer this question, and it could be satisfied with a phone call. This is a pretty simple, straightforward question.

Who was in charge of the interrogations? What agencies and private contractors were in charge of the interrogations? Did they have authority over the guards? What were the instructions to the guards? This goes to the heart of this matter.

Secretary RUMSFELD. It does, indeed. As I understand it, there were two contractor organizations. They supplied interrogators and linguists. I was advised by General Smith that there were maybe a total of 40.

Senator McCain. Now, were they in charge of the interrogations?

General SMITH. Yes, sir. There were 37 interrogators that were

Senator McCain. I'm asking who was in charge of the interrogations.

General SMITH. They were not in charge. They were interrogators.

Senator McCain. My question is, who was in charge of the interrogations?

General SMITH. The brigade commander for the MI brigade. Senator McCain. Did he also have authority over the guards? General SMITH. Sir, he had tactical control over the guards, so Senator McCAIN. Mr. Secretary, you can't answer these questions?

Secretary RUMSFELD. I can. I thought the purpose of the question was to try to make sure we got an accurate presentation, and we have the expert here who was in the chain of command.

Senator MCCAIN. I think these are fundamental questions to this issue.

Secretary RUMSFELD. Fine.
Senator McCAIN. What were the instructions to the guards?

Secretary RUMSFELD. There are two sets of responsibilities, as your question suggests. In one set, you have the people who have the responsibility for managing the detention process. They are not interrogators. The MI people, as General Smith has indicated, were the people who were in charge of the interrogation part of the process. The responsibility, as I have reviewed the matter, shifted over a period of time, and the General is capable of telling you when that responsibility shifted.

[Clarifying information provided by the DOD follows:] The overall responsibility for the Baghdad Central Confinement Facility (Abu Ghraib) was transferred from the 800th MP Brigade to the 205th MI Brigade by a CJTF-7 Fragmentary Order (FRAGO) on November 18, 2003. In accordance with the order, the units operating at Abu Ghraib came under the tactical control of the 205th MI Brigade for security of detainees and FOB protection. The MP, however, retained responsibility for detention operations.

Senator McCain. What were the instructions to the guards?

Secretary RUMSFELD. That is what the investigation that I have indicated has been undertaken is determining.

Senator McCAIN. Mr. Secretary, that's a very simple, straightforward question.

Secretary RUMSFELD. As the Chief of Staff of the Army can tell you, the guards are trained to guard people. They are not trained to interrogate, and their instructions are to, in the case of Iraq, adhere to the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Conventions apply to all of the individuals there, in one way or another. They apply to the POWs, and they're written out, and they're instructed, and the people in the Army train them to that. The people in the CENTCOM have the responsibility of seeing that, in fact, their conduct is consistent with the Geneva Conventions. The criminals in the same detention facility are handled under a different provision of the Geneva Conventions. I believe it's the fourth, and the prior one is the third.

(Clarifying information provided by the DOD follows:) Detaines who are criminals, persons who attack the force and civilians who are security threats are called "civilian internees” and are protected persons under Geneva Convention IV. Geneva Convention IV applies to all categories of civilian personnel we have detained in Iraq.

Senator McCAIN. So the guards were instructed to treat the prisoners, under some kind of changing authority, as I understand it, according to the Geneva Conventions.

Secretary RUMSFELD. Absolutely.
Senator McCAIN. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman WARNER. Thank you, Senator.

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