on the axle boxes, and when the wheel meets an obstruction or depression, there comes a blow or shock without a cushion or equalizing device of any kind to receive or relieve the compression or impact. It is as if you were to take four or five tons and strike a blow on each joint, and every time they are thus struck, our troubles are thus aggravated, and the destruction of the joints, as well as the car bodies, goes on. This, to my mind, is one of the greatest reasons why we are troubled as we are with low joints, and the sooner we realize and so guard against it, the sooner our troubles will be lessened. On our road we have tried the experiment of placing the elliptic springs on top of the axle boxes, and suspending the whole weight of truck, frame, motors, car bodies and passengers upon these springs, so that the wheel and axle are free to move up and down to meet the inequalities of the track. This is a matter well deserving our attention.

I might say that we are using now on our lines about all the different styles of rails mentioned here to-night, but, of course, prefer the sixty pound T to any other. I believe, too, as a matter of fact, the sooner and nearer we can get to steam railroad practice the better. During the past fifty years they have encountered and surmounted many of the difficulties that we have been and are still likely to encounter in the operation of our roads. I have been informed by steam railroad men that they would not think for one moment of running a locomotive without some equalizing arrangement, for should they run an engine from New York to Chicago without being so equipped, she would almost tear herself to pieces, to say nothing of the damage to the track. To my mind this is a matter of sufficient importance for thought and investigation.

REMARKS OF MR. W. FRANK CARR.

Mr. W. Frank Carr, of Roanoke: A form of construction I have used in Minneapolis in track work both with T and girder rail is this: In the first place at the location of the joint I place a stringer tie, the top of which is carefully set at sub-grade or grade of bottom of cross-tie, and firmly tamped to prevent settling. On top of stringer tie I place three cross-ties close together and then the rail, bringing the joint on centre cross-tie.

I have tried that construction in the T rail and the girder rail, and in each case have obtained satisfactory results; and have not

noticed in a year and a half or two years' operation any hammering at the joints. In that case we have the full length of the tie, six feet, that has got to be battered down. If the joints are placed opposite we can in that way get the top of the rail to come nearer the same level or grade than in the other construction This has given us satisfaction in every respect.

Mr. Littell: What do you use for your stringer tie?

Mr. Carr: I use the ordinary tie.

Mr. Littell: Do you leave room enough to tamp?

Mr. Carr: Yes, sir; I use a special size of tie, 8 in. face where the rail is shallow depth.

REMARKS OF MR. EDWARD J. LAWLESS.

Mr. Edward J. Lawless: In the construction of a street railroad we have to adapt ourselves to the place in which we are located, and the surrounding conditions. There is no question that a T rail is a very desirable article; but can you use it everywhere when you want to? I think you have found that you cannot. The next rail that you want to use is the centre-bearing rail, as that is the nearest to the T rail that we know of; but can you use that everywhere you want to? I do not think you can. We have been using side-bearing rails, centre-bearing rails, and T rails. We can use these without chairs, where we have no paving, but when it comes to the question of paving, we have to use either a deep rail, or a rail with chairs. A rail with chairs was satisfactory as long as horse cars were in operation, but since the electric motors have come into use, the rail on chairs is unsatisfactory; consequently I agree with my friend, Mr. Littell, that the deep rail is what we require for electric cars where paving is necessary. We have heard a good deal of discussion in reference to the joints. During my experience in railroading, which has covered a number of years, I have found that a great deal of trouble with the joints is due to the defective tamping of the joint tie. That is one of the main troubles with the joint. Use a good wide tie under your joint, put on your splice bars and tighten up your bolts; do not be satisfied by merely using a wrench upon your bolt, or striking the head of it with a machine hammer. After you have tightened your bolts with a wrench, take a sledge and hammer them well, then tighten again, and if you twist off a bolt or two it does not matter; try another. I think by adopting that plan

you will find that your trouble with the joints will be limited, considerably so. We built some track for electric cars over a year ago; we put one wide tie under each joint, and made it a particular business to see that every joint tie was well tamped. There are some gentlemen here, I believe, who constructed the road for our company, and I think they will admit that I made life a burden for them on the subject of tamping the joint ties. We have been running a year and have not as yet had occasion or found it necessary to repair a single joint.

Mr. Hurt I would like to ask the gentleman a question. He laid special stress on the tie under the joint. That is undoubtedly the weakest point in your construction. Then if you can get a good joint, which will remove that trouble, you will have a substantially perfect track; in other words, the joint will be as strong as any other portion of the rail.

Mr. Lawless: If you can give me a joint that will give no trouble at any time during operation, I will be glad to talk business with you.

Mr. Wm. Richardson: When I came to New York, twenty-eight years ago, a perfect greenhorn in everything relating to city railroads, I made the acquaintance of a gentleman who gave me a good deal of instruction at that time, and who has kept it up ever since. I see that gentleman on the same seat with me to-night, and I know that the Convention will listen with interest to Mr. William Wharton, Jr.; why he keeps up the Jr., I do not understand; but I know he can teach you more about railroad construction than most of you have forgotten.

REMARKS OF MR. WILLIAM WHARTON, JR.

Mr. William Wharton, Jr., of Philadelphia: I wish to pay a tribute to the complete and exhaustive paper by Mr. Baumhoff, which I have had the pleasure of reading. There is so much that is good in it, and so little, if any, that is not good, that I think there is very little to add to it, either by way of addition or criticism.

In regard to the matter of rails, of course, we all know that if it were possible to use a T rail universally, nobody would use anything else; but, unfortunately, the railway companies are obliged to do what the local authorities force them to do. In many cases the local authorities purposely or ignorantly impose

conditions which ought not to be imposed. Nevertheless, there are some good reasons why the T rail cannot be used in Philadelphia, and in nearly all large cities, especially in the eastern part of the United States, where the streets are not laid out with that liberality with which they are laid out in many cities of the Western States. We have comparatively narrow streets, and if the railway company was allowed to put down just what it wanted, without considering the convenience of the other traffic, it would not be fair; so that if we take it altogether, we must acknowledge that they have done about the best thing they could do for all concerned, when they force the railway companies to give a surface to their tracks which will not exclude other travel.

As to the joints, I think one point has been overlooked, and that is in tightening up the bolts, and forcing the fish-plates home as far as you can do it, even if you are so careful as to remove the bolts, and put them back again, after scraping off any oxide or other matter which may be there. With all this care, there is another thing that should be done, which is, that after the road has been running a month or so, and the little lines or points of contact are worn away, the joints should be gone over and the bolts tightened up again. You will then get good bearing surfaces, and the joints will last somewhat in the manner in which the fish joints of steam railroads last. The steam railroad people are continually tightening their joints; they have track walkers whose business it is to look out for weak points in the joints, and especially to tighten up the nuts. We know that it is the custom among the street-railroad people to build a road and expect it to continue in a good condition without further attention. They will not take the pains to fix a joint; even if they see it somewhat weakly, they will let it go until it is too late to make a good remedy. I think it is a good plan to have ready access to the bolts and nuts at all joints; and electric railways call for as much care in that respect as the steam railroad companies have found it necessary to give to their tracks. There are various devices by which you can have ready access to the bolts and nuts, but if you do not choose to have a joint-box with a lid, so that you can instantly get at the joint, it is in any event a paramount duty that the trackmen shall be forced to see that all joints giving the least sign of weakness shall be promptly repaired, the pavement being taken up to do so if necessary.

REMARKS OF MR. A. L. JOHNSON.

Mr. A. L. Johnson, of Cleveland: Mr. Wharton claims that the joints should be taken care of. Some little while ago, in Boston, I took pains to look up the question of joints. They had iron boxes at the joints, by which you could take up a lid and tighten them up. I found that in nearly every case, notwithstanding the fact that they had tightened the bolts repeatedly, that they had been raising the tie. It was the tie that had gone down. That is the reason I asked Mr. Littell what he ballasted with. I think if you build a railroad track on ties, and put nothing. under the ties but the gravel you find in the street, you are apt to have trouble. I have had experience with a road eight miles in length, and three and a half miles in paved streets, paved with brick on gravel, such as they put down on ordinary pavements, an eighty-five pound girder rail, with the ties tamped with the material they had there, and to-day you can count the joints as you go along. I run twenty-one foot trolley cars, with seven foot six wheel base, thirty-three inch wheels, and rather a heavy car. For five and a half miles on the same road the ties are laid every two feet, seven feet long, five by eight, white oak ties, with rock ballast. I laid half of the mountain district over in the town on this rock ballast, fifty-six pound Trail, with threequarter inch bolt, and you cannot see any place, either on the girder rail or T rail, where we have used the rock ballast, where there is a weak joint. My advice to any man laying a street railroad track, is to use a large tie at the joints, as has been suggested, and ballast it thoroughly. The ballasting is what tells. The man who puts in a steam engine puts in a solid foundation. You can put in all the heavy ties and heavy joints you like; but without the ballasting the track will not stand. I am building a road now, at a place where we have no ballast, only the ordinary street ballast, and you can notice the way the car goes over it. In St. Louis there is a road my brother is interested in, and Mr. Minary manages it. I think you will find there a rail seventyeight pounds, laid on rock ballast-a wide girder rail. That rail, I think, has stood up for the past two years as well as any track I have ever seen. One gentleman spoke about light rails. On Scovill avenue we have ties two feet apart, fifty-two pound rail, Johnson girder joint; the track is in a horrible state, and we have got to take it up.