ballast rolled after it was put on? I believe Mr. Johnson spoke of a road in St. Louis that was laid with a ballasted track.

Mr. Johnson: The earth was not rolled with a steam roller.

Mr. Eppley Speaking of the rail joint, why is it that nut-lock washers have not been introduced in street-railway track construction? Nearly all the steam roads use them with much success. I am informed they become tighter by constant use. I am not interested in the washer. [Laughter.]

Mr. Richardson: Will not the gentleman kindly answer his own question?

Mr. Lawless I understand that nut-lock washer is made in Newark [Laughter.]

Mr. Littell I want to ask a question, if there is any man here that ever saw a loose nut at a joint of an electric or horse car track, a loose nut on a bolt, except it be where there is a little cast iron box, such as they have in Boston?

REMARKS OF MR. O. T. CROSBY.

Mr. O. T. Crosby, of Boston: It seems to me that Mr. Pearson's warning note about the wearing of the tie, and much else that has been brought out in the discussion to-night, leads us to think for a moment at least, as to the metal tie. We know that in European countries it has been largely used, where wood is dearer than it is here. Our steam railroads have a good excuse for using the wooden tie, being as economical as it is originally, aud being easily gotten at for repairs; but as Mr. Pearson has pointed out, it is a difficult matter to get at ties in street-railroad construction. Even the excellent construction that Mr. Beckley described has, if I am not mistaken, been tried in Shawmut avenue, Boston, and has been found objectionable for the reason that by the constant pounding of the motor the end of the rail will cut into the wood. I do not want to discuss this matter at length. I think an important use for the metallic tie is this-it may simplify very much the question of bonding together the rails in order to get the benefit of them in an electrical circuit. In thinking the matter over to-night, it occurs to me that if we have metallic ties, either with suspended or supported joints, we might get a better electrical bond between the two rails than we can possibly do to day. The business is young yet, and certainly a change to metallic ties, radical as it would be, would be less radical than many changes we have all made.

Mr. Littell: We have continually had the steam roads held up to us as something to look to, as something we should follow. I want to say that I understand that the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, which is the greatest and best managed railroad in the world (and this comes a little hard for me to say, because I live in Buffalo and the New York Central stops there), have been trying this metallic tie for some years, and I have been informed on reliable authority that they are taking them out and substituting wood. I think I can say this without contradiction.

Mr. Johnson In reference to metal ties, I have tried them. I had the Johnson Company make five hundred of them; but we had to take them out; there was not weight enough in them. They were seven inches wide, and three eighths of an inch thick. We tried them on Willson avenue, and found we had to take them out. The greatest difficulty with them seems to be that they are afraid of their expansion, and that they will widen the gauge of the track, where the track is exposed, and not when covered in paved streets.

REMARKS OF MR. WILLIAM M. RAMSEY.

Mr. William M. Ramsey, of Pittsburgh: I have not had the number of years of experience that most of the gentlemen present have enjoyed; but during the time I have been in the business I have learned several things which were very instructive in regard to the question of joints. I heard a civil constructing engineer, a man who stands at the head of his profession, say that if he were building an electric railway or cable railway, he should put under each joint-tie two feet of concrete, and surmount it with a capstone, and he would have a permanent construction. This would be an extreme measure, and would produce just the opposite of the effect intended. The gentlemen who has just spoken, Mr. Beckley, also recommends the putting of better ballast and a better foundation under the rail joint than under the rest of the track.

A perfect joint construction, in my opinion, is one which will not be noticeable when the cars pass over it, and which will remain in that condition, with only reasonable attention from year to year. Those of you who have noticed the older form of trolley-wire hanger, the solid cross-arm form, have probably noticed that the trolley wheel runs along under the wire until it comes to

one of the solid brackets, and then it makes a flash and a jar that every one in the car can hear. Every solid bracket can be counted, by the jar and the noise, as the car passes along. The same thing occurs when a too solid foundation is put under each rail joint, and too little under the remainder of the rail. The track will spring down after the car passes a joint, and a shock and a jar will occur when a joint is passed over. The plan of our company is to put exactly as good construction under the whole length of the rail as we put under each joint, and our experience has been contrary to that of Mr. Beckley. We put six or eight inches of good broken stone under each tie, the whole length of the rail, and we seem to obtain good results. The Pleasant Valley road followed the lead of the Rochester road in some respects, except that we were not advised by experts. We bought a quarry, a crusher, a boiler, and all the other appurtenances, and we crushed stone and built our new tracks. That was about a year ago, and the tracks so built are still in excellent condition. We put our ties about thirty inches apart.

FURTHER REMARKS OF MR. GEORGE W. BAUMHOFF.

Mr. George W. Baumhoff: I believe it is customary, in submitting a report of the kind which I have submitted to this body, for the Committee to be put on the defensive; that is to say, to listen to the discussion. I am pleased to note that in all the discussions that has taken place, there are but two exceptions taken to the report. One of those, I believe, is on the space to be allowed for the joint, and the other on the ballasting of the track.

Referring to the first, namely, the joint, I desire to say that in submitting a report of this character, embracing, as it does, a territory with such a variation of climate as we have in the United States, I preferred to be on the safe side. Therefore, as you will notice by the report with reference to the rail joints, I say-the rails when laid in hot weather may be closely joined; I had in view the fact that rail laid in any district, in the northern as well as the southern climates, was subject naturally to the various degrees of temperature for the various climates. In St. Louis, where we have laid upwards of two miles of rail of the seventyeight-pound pattern, we laid it as closely as the rail could possibly be put together, and to-day, if I had the same rail to lay in that climate, I should do the same thing. I would not advocate

it for a rail of less weight, or, in other words, of shallower depth. Therefore, to be on the safe side, I have suggested that the rail, when laid in cold weather, should be laid with a joint to allow for expansion.

Now referring to the ballasting for the roadbed. In considering the construction of the roadbed, I am sometimes reminded of the architect who was about to build a house. No person would think of building a house for which there was no foundation; neither would that person, if it was necessary to provide a suitable foundation for the house, go about it in a haphazard manner. For instance, if the necessity occurred, his specifications would be drawn up in such a manner as to insure him the best possible mixture and the best possible material that the market afforded to give him a complete job for that purpose. Hence in preparing your roadbed, before a tie is laid, as you will notice by the report, I advocate not only that the soil be well rolled before the ballast is put on, but also after it is placed it should be well rolled. From personal observations made in several cities other than St. Louis-taking Minneapolis, for instance, the soil there being of a sandy character, if I was going to lay rail in that soil, I should not give the subject of drainage that consideration that I would if laid where there was a yellow clay, or more solid soil to contend with; that is to say, a soil in which the water would not drain off very readily. I am pleased to note that after all the discussion that has been had on this subject that these are the only two criticisms made, and that when they are considered, as I know you gentlemen will consider them, you will find that where a recommendation is made, it is made with a view to perfect construction, and not in a haphazard manner.

REMARKS OF MR. W. H. JANNEY.

Mr. W. H. Janney, of Philadelphia: In regard to weak joints, I think the trouble has probably been that you trust too much to the fish plate bolts; in other words, the holes in the rails have been, perhaps, drilled a trifle larger than the bolts, and the strain. has probably come on the bolts. My experience is that the bolts cut through. I have seen an inch bolt cut half way through. If you could get a good joint that would carry the rail independently of the bolt, so as to get the weight on the plate, whatever it is, it will obviate a certain portion of the bad joints. I do not see, nor can

I believe, that a nine or ten inch rail is any better than a six inch; perhaps you cannot lay a six inch rail on the tie. The nearer you get the head of your rail to the tie the better it will be; that is conceded. If you get the seventy-eight or sixty-six pound rail on a good chair that will carry the weight of the rail and the car, you will have just as good a track as with a ten inch rail. We are to day running a ten ton dummy over a sixty-six pound rail, and have been running it eighteen months over a street not paved, subject to all conditions of weather.

Mr. Richardson: How often does the dummy pass over the track?

Mr. Janney Every seven and one-half minutes; it carries with it a trail car; and the load is sometimes one hundred to one hundred and fifty persons. In regard to the ten inch rail, if you do not put a tie plate under the ten inch rail, it does not matter if your fish plate has twenty-four bolts, the fish plate will slip from under the head, throwing the weight on the bolts, and cutting them, and the rail will cut on the tie. My idea would be to have a sufficient tie plate, three-eighths of an inch thick, carrying both rails, and then the tie has a chance to help the fish plate out. We have various kinds of rails, and, of course, we have a good deal of trouble with the joints. I think if somebody could invent a joint chair plate that would carry the weight of the rail, it would remove most of the difficulty.

Mr. H. C. Payne, of Milwaukee: I want to say that, of course, each city is governed by the surrounding circumstances, and the action of its council. In our city we have a special permit from the council, in streets not paved, to put down a rail five and onehalf inches high, weighing fifty-six pounds, for about twenty miles; and that gives us exactly as good service, and we use it as frequently as the track in the paved streets, where we have an eight inch rail, weighing eighty-eight pounds to the yard. It is a girder rail, and gives us as good service, with electric motors running over it every two minutes. We have used it a year and a half.

REMARKS OF MR. CHARLES W. WASON.

Mr. Charles W. Wason, of Cleveland: In order to get as nearly as possible a continuous rail, we made an experiment in the early part of this present year, putting down about a thousand feet of track riveted; that is, the joints riveted with red-hot rivets, put in