such circumstances; because it throws the greater strain on the weak point. I have laid some tracks with seven-inch rail, on stone bearings, and there is not a weak point about the track, except at the joint, and that is only where we break grade. Whenever you break the grade at the small or lowest point of the grade, you will throw it at the joints, and make it stronger than the rail. I prefer to have it stronger. I mention this matter in order to see how much the gentlemen of the Convention differ with me in regard to that rail. I believe in this construction, that a fifty pound rail, laid in the manner described, with the joint properly cared for, will give as good service as a ninety pound rail laid in the ordinary manner.

In our city there has been a prejudice against the Trail. We have succeeded in overcoming the prejudice by guaranteeing that we would endeavor, and we continue to do so, to fill the space between the stone and the head of the rail.

Mr. Frederick S. Wardwell, of Duluth: You have no trouble with ruts alongside the rail?

Mr. Hurt: We are filling these spaces in some places with hard wood; in others we are filling them with asphalt, with which, however, I am not entirely satisfied. We are also filling them with good Portland cement, except on grades, and we have very little trouble with grades. We have had fair results filling these spaces with broken stone well rammed.

REMARKS OF MR. FREDERICK S. WARDWELL.

tamarac ties.

out some

Mr. Frederick S. Wardwell: Our Company has laid about twelve miles of T rails, sixty pounds to the yard, using hewn We had a street of block paving. We took large cedar, cut it to the usual length, and split it on a circular saw, and then by using an angular table, with the circular saw, we get the blocks shaped to fit under the head of the rail. We then drove them in with an adze. In that class of construction we had a continuous bearing the whole length of the rail. When we asked a neighboring town for a charter, they sent their engineer away to examine the tracks in other cities, and when he came back, much to our surprise, they inserted in our charter the provision that we should use nothing but T rail, laid one-half inch above the pavement, and they accepted nothing else. Their engineer's report is something like this-there is no reason why the

city should maintain the pavement in any one part of the street for the benefit of any certain class. He said, if we have the O. G. rail, all the heavy vehicle traffic will be close to the street-car track, and we will have to repair the street every year. If the T rail is laid, there are no special repairs, as the wear of the street is distributed over its whole surface, and we get a better wear out of the pavement.

Mr. W. Worth Bean, of St. Joseph: What city is it that does not object to T rail in the street?

Mr. Wardwell Duluth, Minnesota.

Mr. Hurt: I am very glad for the suggestion of the method of cutting the blocks in filling the space next to the T rail. We use it lengthwise, and we are very well satisfied with that construction.

Mr. D. F. Longstreet, of Denver: I would say that there is one other city that does not object to T rail. Out of perhaps one hundred and seventy miles in Denver, there is nothing but T rails, except the Providence girder, which is the same thing, so far as the head of the rail is concerned. There is no objection there.

In the city of Providence a large quantity of that rail is used, and where the pavement is properly laid against it, it certainly is the best rail for a street, without any question; and I believe that the Trail, if you can use it, is the best rail that you can possibly get.

Mr. Eppley I believe Mr. Richardson was about to reply to my question with reference to the upper surface of the rail. I should like very much to hear from the gentleman in reference to that.

REMARKS OF MR. WILLIAM RICHARDSON.

Mr. William Richardson: I will say for the gentleman's infor mation that in the State of New York, by reason of the legislation of last winter, no more centre-bearing rail can be laid in that State in any city of over one hundred and fifty thousand population. That takes out nearly all the prominent cities. I do not know whether it applies to Albany roads. They were in the city of legislation, and probably got the limits fixed a little better than we were able to. The result is, that we have used a form of girder rail, which would be known more correctly, perhaps, as the Philadelphia tram, side-bearing rail, without any lip to it on the inside.

Now the Company with which I am connected has a good many miles of centre-bearing rail laid down, in very good condition for horse car use, laid on ties five feet apart, with stringers of Florida pine, five by seven. This has been laid a few years, and was in good condition to last for some years to come for horse railroad travel. I gave the matter the most thorough investigation, aided by the judgment of engineers, with the idea of putting in enough ties, making them two feet six inches apart, and replacing the five by seven timbers and using that same centrebearing rail, some of fifty and some of sixty pounds to the yard. I went through it very carefully to see what would probably be the result; and I made up my mind from the investigation that it would result in perhaps two or three years of good wear, and then give way; and that there was no use in temporizing with the question in that way. We found that it would cost about five thousand dollars a mile more to put in the construction which I have tried to describe, and have it new. Five thousand dollars a mile is two hundred and fifty dollars a year at five per cent. The repair account in looking after the old track would amount to a great deal each year; besides the annoyance and trouble of keeping the tracks in order; to say nothing of the greater wear and tear of your motors, and no man can afford to run machinery over a rough track to save five thousand dollars a mile, or two hundred and fifty dollars a year. We thought we could not avoid the question, and that we would better meet it at once and add to our interest account to that extent; and get as nearly as possible a perfect rail on which to run our new cars. that centre-bearing rail, we could not put it down again except under the name of repairs. It seemed to me a clear proposition that the thorough way was the best and cheapest in the long run, and, for that matter, in the short one.

If we took up

Mr. F. S. Holmes, of New York: I understand that the gentleman from Brooklyn has a mile or so of duplex rail, and his experience with that rail may throw some light on this question of track and joints. I should like to hear something of his experience with regard to the duplex street-railway track.

Mr. Richardson: As the gentleman has chosen to ask that question, I will say that the distance is about a half mile, but it is not yet completed.

REMARKS OF MR. HARDIN H. LITTELL.

Mr. Hardin H. Littell: Those gentlemen who can use T rail are not being entertained by what we are talking about. The problem for them is solved. Of course, the best thing to do, if you can, is to lay a T rail. Some of us cannot do it. In the State of New York, as Mr. Richardson has told you, we cannot lay the Trail, nor any form of centre-bearing rail. My experience is that the best rail to lay is a deep rail; that is, a rail eight to ten inches deep-a rail laid without any chairs. I think chairs are a delusion and a snare, and there is no health in them. I think they will all go down. I do not think there is any street railway chair manufacturer that has made a chair, of wrought iron or steel, that will stand up under an electric motor.

I find it is cheaper to lay a nine inch rail on a tie than it is to lay a six inch girder rail on chairs.

Mr. Hurt How do you ballast?

Mr. Littell: We do not ballast, we pave. We tamp with broken stone or gravel, as the case may be. If we are laying the track where there is gravel, we tamp with gravel; if there is no gravel we use broken stone. Now Mr. Pearson, of the West End Street Railway Company, of Boston, is here, and they have had a good deal of experience with joints. I am satisfied that he is willing to tell this Convention a great deal about bad joints, because he had some, and he can tell us how to overcome them, and give us a great deal of other information.

REMARKS OF MR. F. S. PEARSON.

Mr. F. S. Pearson, of Boston: We have tried a great many joints, and up to this time we have not found a joint that is perfectly satisfactory. I think the best we have had, or the one which seems to have the most promise in it, is the Johnson girder joint. We have not laid any of the deep rail, and consequently have not had any experience with that. We have, however, detected a fault in our special work which I think will be inherent in any girder rail laid on ties. In some of our special work, we have found that the rail cuts into the ties. All steam railroad rails do this, and the ties are cut into very rapidly by the rails. You will notice in the winter, as the ties are cut into and the ground is frozen too hard to tamp, that the section men put in wedges under the rail to hold the track up until Spring.

It seems to me that in the eight, or nine, or ten-inch girder rail the same fault will exist and consequently the joints will go down. You are not going to get rid of this trouble by a deep rail, unless a large bearing plate is put on the tie. In the steam road you can get at the tie, but in the street-railroad you cannot, consequently a bearing plate will be required for street rails The width of the flange on the rail is not sufficient. The plate ought to be ten or twelve inches long, and six or eight inches wide, on every tie, and even then this deep girder construction may go to pieces and give trouble, the same as the other forms of lighter rails. Our experience leads us to feel that a six inch girder rail, laid on a stringer, with a proper joint-the Johnson girder or something similar-is the best construction. In the stringer construction we get a large bearing surface; the rail bears its whole length on the stringer, and there is no cutting into the tie. If you are going to use a ten-inch girder rail, a long fish plate should be used; I think it ought to be at least thirty-six inches long, two rows of bolts, using twelve bolts to a joint. With this joint and large bolts, the joints ought to stand up. Another fault in rails, enough care in laying

which I do not think is looked after with track, is a slight difference which may occur in the height of two abutting rails. If you get a difference of a sixteenth or even a thirty-second of an inch in the height of the rails, you will have a bad joint, no matter how good the fish plate.

Mr. Littell: Especially with an eight-wheel car.

Mr. Pearson: It does not seem to me that an eight-wheel car will wear on the track any more than a twenty-foot car.

REMARKS OF MR. D. F. HENRY.

Mr. D. F. Henry, of Pittsburgh: I have listened with much interest to this discussion and heartily concur in the remarks relative to the Trail, but as most of us are restricted by city ordinances to the use of the girder rail, I believe it should be made of sufficient depth to be used without the chair or tie plate, and spiked directly to the tie. An important factor in the destruction of our tracks, mention of which at this time will, I trust, not be out of place, is that our trucks (and I believe that nearly every electric railway up to date has been using the same type), are rigidly suspended on the axle boxes, consequently the whole weight of truck, frame, motors, car bodies and passengers is carried solidly