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Preparation of Schoolmasters.

Would any departure from those rules be liable to censure? Certainly.

In your scheme of education, it appears that there is nothing but reading, writing and arithmetic embraced; do you think it would be desirable that it should be confined to so narrow a range of acquisition?

I think that the reading, the writing and the arithmetic, may be all so taught as to work improvement in the mind at the time that they are taught; that in teaching an art, it should be made the means of conveying instruction and information to the pupil. Then under the head of reading, you would embrace history and geography, and all the other branches of English literature; and under the head of arithmetic, you would embrace a portion of mathematics?

Yes.

Are there any defined limits which you would lay down in your idea of elementary education?

None, beyond what the phrase itself conveys.

Would you have two kinds of elementary education, a higher and a lower; or would you distinguish between the education required by persons inhabiting towns, and that required for the inhabitants of rural districts?

I do not think that there should be any fixed difference between town schools and rural schools, except as to one portion of instruction, which I should think particularly desirable in rural schools; that is, agricultural instruction.

How far would you carry agricultural instruction? Would you limit it to agricultural operations, or carry it to agricultural chemistry?

I doubt whether, in general, you could go very far.

Has it been in the contemplation of the Board to found any agricultural school?

The powers

of the Board at present, would not enable them to do so; but I am sure the Board would be very glad to be enabled to found agricultural schools.

2.-PREPARATION OF SCHOOLMASTERS.

Have you been in the habit of meeting frequently since the period of your first constitution?

Our regular meetings are once a week; these have occasionally been omitted, and sometimes we have had additional meetings.

Have you found that any obstacles have been interposed to the practical efficiency of the Board by the circumstance that the members of it are of different religious persuasions?

Their Admission to the Schools.

243

Not in the least; we have never had a division on any subject.

Is it a part of the business of the Board to provide or approve of masters for the schools in the country?

We only approve of them in the mean time, as we have not been able to do any thing towards providing them; but we require certificates of their fitness, and it is in contemplation, according to the letter which has been addressed to us, when we are able to do so, to examine them that we may be able to form a more perfect opinion of their qualifications from our own knowledge of them. There have been also two classes brought up from the country, of about twenty each, to receive instruction, who have been under teaching about three months.

Have they been under teaching at your own school in Dublin?

Yes.

Does it appear to you that it would be advisable, if possible, to train masters for a considerably longer period than three months?

I should think it quite indispensable to the well-being of the system to do so. In Ireland, the schoolmasters for the poor are of a very inferior description indeed; particularly with regard to general intelligence.

Have you formed any estimate, either by yourself, or in conjunction with other members of the Board, of what time it would be desirable to keep schoolmasters under training?

We agreed to a recommendation upon that subject, which was submitted to the Government, in which the Board were unanimous. It is as follows. 'All students entering these academies for the purpose of becoming teachers under the national system, are to be examined on an entrance course. They should be required to study in the academy at least two full years; during which time they should receive instruction, not merely in the different branches of knowledge specified, but be practised in teaching in the model school.'

Does the Board mention the age at which the ed for schoolmasters should enter?

persons intend

Their recommendation is, that the entrance examination should not be received till the student is at least eighteen years

of age.

Does it appear to you, speaking generally without reference. to the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, that it would be a great benefit to England or any other country in Europe, to have a set of schoolmasters well trained, and who could be sufficiently guaranteed to the country as good schoolmasters?

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Methods of Training them.

I should conceive very highly so, for any country whatever. Are you of opinion that it is necessary, in order to ascertain whether they will fulfil the purpose for which are they intended, that they should have some practice in teaching at a considerable school before they go out?

Yes, that is the opinion of the Board. They have recommended that measure, namely, to have model schools connected with the academies, for training masters, where they can be instructed in the art of teaching. When I spoke of training, I included education generally. The Kildare-place Society did not educate, but merely trained the teachers to conduct schools. But what we conceive to be peculiarly important is, that they should be educated as well as trained.

When you say that they should be educated, you mean that a considerable portion of knowledge should be imparted to them before they set out as schoolmasters ?

Yes; the improvements that have been introduced latterly into education, particularly in Scotland, require a considerable degree of education to enable the schoolmasters to carry them into practice. Every subject brought forward in the reading lessons, must be explained, and the master is expected to be able to answer the questions that the children may put to him; and this he cannot do without considerable information.

Are you of opinion that by the Scottish method you have. mentioned, a great improvement has been made on the old system of instruction, principally by teaching the boys to exercise their own minds?

I think a very great improvement indeed.

Has that system been adopted in your own model-school in Dublin?

It has, as far as we have been able hitherto to adopt it. We had no books at first, adapted to that system of teaching; we have been gradually accumulating books, the chief object of which is to convey information on various subjects, while the children are learning to read; and we have in our model-school pursued that system of instruction.

Can you describe to the Committee the process which was gone through with respect to those whom you have trained as schoolmasters?

The head master went through our reading books with them, explaining the different subjects which occurred in these books. They were also exercised in reading, English grammar, arithmetic, book-keeping, and mathematical sciences; they were from time to time, taken into the school to learn the mode of teaching recommended by the Board, and were also exercised, from time to time, in teaching classes themselves.

Duties of School Inspectors.

245

Supposing that were adopted in Ireland, which has been already in use in America-periodical conferences of teachers in the capital-wou'd not that be a great auxiliary to the proceedings of the Board, in the information which they necessarily would furnish, of the state of education, and the progress of particular methods in various parts of Ireland?

I think it would.

Do you think that course, combined with training schools, would give all the information which they could possibly require ? I think it would.

Would you trust the management, in any manner, to an incorporated body of teachers?

No.

What are the inconveniences you see resulting from entrusting them with such power?

My notion is, that those who are to control education in Ireland, should be persons possessing qualifications of a nature quite different from those that one could expect to be possessed by teachers in general. You have not merely to consider the question of teaching, but you have to consider many questions of great public importance: you have to pay a great deal of regard to public feeling; you must be prepared to yield your own opinions or your own prejudices upon many points, and to consider not only what is right in the abstract, but what is right in the particular state of the country, and what is likely to prove acceptable to the country. Now persons bred up to a particular profession, frequently, from particular views and habits, endeavor to make all principles and considerations bend to them.

In examining the Inspectors, have you any set series of questions in your examinations, or is it left entirely to the option of the Commissioners who happen to be present?

It is left entirely to the discretion of the members of the Board who happen to be present, and who certainly work the candidate pretty fully.

Is a certain number of members required to constitute a Board for the purpose of examining candidates for the offices of the Board?

Three members are sufficient to constitute a Board, and a Board so constituted may transact any business; but whenever an inspector has been appointed, I am pretty sure that five members at least have attended.

How are the Inspectors paid?

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Pensions to Teachers and Inspectors.

The Inspectors receive a certain annual sum in lieu of all allowances.

What is the amount of that sum?

It is now £300 a year.

How many inspectors have you?
We have eight inspectors.

Do

you find that number sufficient? For the present.

Is the £300 a year, over and above his travelling expenses ? No, all expenses are included.

What are the duties which the Inspectors have to discharge? They have to visit the several schools, to examine into the conduct of them, to ascertain whether the rules of the Board are strictly observed, and to report to us the result.

Is it not the tendency of your mode of payment to make them extremely anxious to get through their business as soon as possible, and to abridge their travelling expenses as much as possible?

It is; but we take care to keep them constantly out for at least nine months of the year. So soon as they return from one circuit, they are sent to another.

You do not confine them to a particular circuit?

No, we change them.

Do they visit each school at particular periods, or are they visiting the same school, sometimes in one month and sometimes another?

Sometimes one month, and sometimes another.

Do you find that to answer much better than visiting periodically?

Yes; we think it better that the people should not have any notice when they are coming.

Have the Board summary power of dismissal, or suspensino of their officers, without any reference to the Lord Lieutenant ? Absolute power; we never communicate with the Government as to any act with respect to our officers.

Do you contemplate to give any superannuation to inspectors after a certain number of years of service?

I wish we were enabled to grant superannuations to persons who may become unable to work.

You think it would be incentive to the correct performance of duty?

I think it would be very desirable, not only that the inspectors should have superannuations, but the masters also.

Would you extend the number of inspectors?

The number of inspectors must be increased in proportion as the schools increased.