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Cape. We used to fish in different places, but the most part was taken around the Magdalens.
Q. What was the third schooner you were in ?-A. The Charles P. Thompson. No, I was mistaken. The second schooner I was in was the James Bliss.
Q. Who was the captain ?-A. James Walsh.
Q. How many barrels did you take in her ?-A. Two hundred and forty.
Q. Where were they taken !-A. Part of them to the north ward of North Cape, what we call Bradley Bank, and abroad off North Cape.
Q. Were any of those taken within three miles ?-A. No, we didn't catch any. I don't know but we tried and got a few there, but not any. tbing over a dozen or so.
Q. Where was that ?-A. It was to the westward of North Capewhat they call Tigpish.
Q. You think you caught a dozen barrels inshore !-A. No, not a dozen; we might bave caught a dozen or twenty mackerel to a man.
Q. What was the fourth vessel you were in mackereling?-A. The Charles P. Thompson was the fourth.
Q. What year was that, do you remember!-A. Well, it was about 1869, I guess. Q. Who was her captain ?-A. Edward Cash. Q. How many barrels of mackerel did you take in her !-A. About 95 barrels ; between that and 100. We caught them up northward.
Q. Was she a new vessel ?-A. No. The James Bliss was a new ves. sel.
Q. Now I would ask you, so far as your observation goes, what is the principal fishing ground for mackerel schooners in the Gulf of St. Lawrence !-A. Where I have principally fished in my time was around the Magdalens. That was the principal ground in my going to fish.
Q. Did you ever fish much off the Bight of Prince Edward Island ?A. No, I never did.
Q. Have you been there ?-A. Yes; I have been there working up and down shore, but I never fished any there. I might have tried abroad off East Point, or abroad off the North Cape ; but I have never been in a vessel that fished in the bend of the island, because it is a place where they don't want to fish very often.
Q. Why not?-A. Because they don't like the ground. They don't like to fish. They don't call it a very safe place to fish.
Q. Is it a place that is avoided by A. Fishermen? Yes.
Q. Why?-A. Because it is a place where, if they are caught with the wind easterly or northeasterly, we can't get out.
Q. You lived at Prince Edward Island 20 years ?-A. Yes; I was born there and lived there until I came to Gloucester.
Q. Do you ever fish there from the shore ?-A. Well, I have gone fish-
Q. I would like to know how far from the shore these fishing boats aroand Prince Edward Island go out for mackerel, or used to wben you were there?-A. I would judge in my way that they would go from three to five miles.
Q. One question more; as you have been sailing out of Gloucester Dow for some years, what is the principal fishing business of Gloucester 1-A. I should think codfish and halibut the principal.
By Mr. Davies : Q. You lived at St. Peter's ?-A. Yes. Q. How long since you lived on the island ?—A. Twelve years. Q. That would be 1865 1-A. Yes. Q. That was when you first went in the Moonlight ?-A. Yes. Q. You have never been on the island since you left there 1-A. No. Q. How old are you now 1-A. About 33. Q. You left the island when you were about 21 ?-A. Yes.
Q. Are your people engaged much in St. Peter's in the fisheries – A. They do go fishing a good deal. They catch fish enough for them. selves any way.
Q. That is just what I want to know. I never understood that you engaged in the fisheries largely ?-A. Well, they catch always enough for themselves. I don't know that they catch any more. That is all, I guess.
Q. There are no fishing-stages there ?-A. No, they can't keep fishing. stages there.
Q. It is a very exposed place ?-A. To my recollection that is so.
Q. Then you never were at any of the fishing-stages fishing on the island 1-A. No.
Q. You never were to Rustico, New London, Cascumpec, or Tignish! -A. No.
Q. You never saw them fishing there?-A. I have seen the boats fishing there.
Q. Will you venture the assertion that those boats fishing off those places fish farther than three miles!—A. I should think off Rustico they fish as much as ten miles.
Q. As a general rule, you think that ?-Yes, because it is a place with shoal water, and they have to go quite a piece off.
Q. Do you give that as your actual opinion or mere supposition ?-A. My opinion is that I have seen them ages outside of ten miles.
Q. Where?-A. Where I have been fishing up and down in those vessels.
Q. But you have said you never fished around Prince Edward Island ? -A. Well, I said I have made passages up and down the island.
Q. What year was that you made passages ?-A. Well, probably I have been—I don't know-=but I have been every year I have been in the bay. Probably we might work up from the north ward up as far as East Point.
Q. Now, every man who was brought here from Rustico, and every man at Rustico who has made an affidavit, has stated that threefourths to nine-tenths of the fish caught in that harbor are caught within three miles of land.
Mr. FOSTER objects to this question, for which, after a short argument, the following question was substituted.
By Mr. Davies: Q. Here is a deponent, Alexander McNeil, who says: I would think the number of fishing-boats at Rustico harbors would number about one hundred and fifty.
My twenty years' experience has proved to me that the best mackerel-fishing arouud our coast is about a mile from the shore, in from 7 to 10 fathoms of water.
All the fish caught by the boats are taken within a mile of the coast, many of them within half a mile, during the months of July and August, but during the months of September and October the boats take their catch farther out, say two miles or two and a half. It is a very rare occasion that they go out three miles or beyond it.
Of the total catch in the boats, over nine-tenths is caught well within the three-mile limit.
Have you sufficient experience off Rustico Harbor to give evidence in contradiction of that I have read I-A. Well, I state what I have said. I have seen boats over ten miles fishing for mackerel off Rustico. Q. Have you had sufficient experience of fishing off Rustico to give aps evidence l-A. I have never fished off Rustico. Q. Will you say it is true or not?—A. I can't tell. Q. How far have you been fishing off Rustico Harbor ?-A. I never fished.
Q. How often have you passed within three miles there ?-A. I don't
Q. Is that as often as you have been there ?—A. Probably that is as
Q. Now, here is Daniel Ross, of Rustico, fish merchant. He says: 1 myself am a practical fisherman and engage personally in the catching and curing as well as in the sale of the fish. That the best mackerel-fishing is about one mile or one mile and a half from the coast-line of the shore, and very frequently the best catches are made much closer to the shore than that . That the mackerel-fishing prosecuted in boats from the shore is chiefly within the limit of two miles ; at times the schools of mackerel go farther out, extending as far as three miles and beyond that, but I have no hesitation in positively swearing that at least nine-tenths 9-10ths ) of the mackerel caught by the boat-fishermen are caught within
the three-mile limit. Would you like, from your experience, to contradict that ?-A. I conld not tell you where they were caught, but I have said what I have said
, that I have seen them ishing outside of three miles.
. I want to know if you yourself ever fished up and down the coast of the island !-A. I might have tried, but never anything inside of three miles. I have never been in within three miles.
Q. When you were living on the island did you never see the American fleet sailing up and down ?-A. Often. Q. Many of them ?-A. There used to be a good many.
Q. What number used you consider there were ?—A. I could not tell; I don't know that I ever counted. l. How many was the fileet of American vessels supposed to be ?-A.
Q. Yes. How many American vessels were there in the fleet sailing up and down ?-A. Sometimes as high as three or four; sometimes ten or fifteen. 2. Did you ever see as many as 100 at one time going past :-A. No. & What would take them into that dangerous place ! -A. Many of them passed up and down, probablyl. Have you any idea that they were fishing ?-A. They may have been some of them fishing half way across. Q. You could not see that I–A. Well, you could see them half way
How many vessels ?
Q. What? Twenty-eight miles from shore !-A. It is only twentyeight miles across from East Point to Magdalen Islands.
Q. You were not at East Point. You were at St. Peter's.-A. You can't tell. I have been up and down.
Q. Well, you say, then, you have been at East Point ?-A, I have been there often.
Q. Have you ever seen the fleet around East Point !-A. I have seen vessels in there.
Q. That is not what I asked you. Have you ever seen the fleet there? -A. Yes; I have seen the fleet. Q. How many would you see I-A. Probably fifteen or twenty.
Q. You have never seen them within three miles there !-A. Not fishing-I never did.
Q. Have you seen them at all within three miles 1-A. I have seen them sailing within three miles.
Q. Fifteen or twenty ?-A. Yes. Q. Were they not fishing 1-A. I could not say they were fishing. Q. Could you say they were not fishing ?-A. Yes. Q. How could you say that ?-A. They were sailing. They don't fish when they are sailing.
Q. Have you never seen them within three miles unless they are sail. ing—A. I have seen them at anchor within three miles.
Q. What were they doing there then 1-A. They were making lee; it was blowing too hard.
Q. You don't know whether they were fishing then or not?-A. I never saw them.
Q. They go there for shelter, to that dangerous place !-A. There is no danger there. They have a way to get out of that part of the bay, but in the bend they haven't.
Q. Did you ever catch fish in Bay Chaleurs ?-A. I did.
Q. Don't you know? As a master-mariner, don't you know where Bay Chaleurs is ?-A. Well, I have fished across from the Magdalens.
Q. But don't you know what Bay Chaleurs is ?-A. Yes.
Q. Well, why do you ask me ?-A. Well, I call it right across from Magdalens to Bay Chaleurs. Wherever we fish down there we call it Bay Chaleurs.
Q. You call it Bay Chaleurs ?-A. Yes; I call it Bay Chaleurs fishing.
Q. It has a good reputation for fishing, has it, the Bay Chaleurs ; has it, among American fishermen ?-A. Well, that is what I always hear them call it.
Q. Have you ever been in the Bay Chaleurs proper fishing ?-A. Yes, I bave.
Q. In what vessel 1-A. I have been in the Charles P. Thomson.
Q. Will you swear you were not in Bay Chaleurs in the Moonlight or Easterwood ?-A. I might be there working up and down. I don't know if ever I fished in there.
Q. You have no recollection of ever fishing in the Bay Chaleurs ?-A.. I don't know if ever I fished there.
Q. In the other two vessels you did; where did you fish ?-A. We tried once at North Cape; that is, in the bay and well to the westward of it.
Q. Point out on the map where North Cape is.-A. Well, I know where it is.
Q. I want you to show it on the map.-A. (Witness points to North
Cape, Prince Edward Island.) That (pointing to waters between North
Q. Did you go around Point Miscou?-A. I have been to anchor there, not fishing.
Q. Then you have been inside of Point Miscou at anchor ?-A. Yes.
Q. Have you heard of other vessels fishing there 1-A. I have heard of other vessels fishing there.
Q. Yon never tried to fish yourself ?-A. No, I have never fished in a vessel that fished up in the bay, but I have been in vessels that fished off Miscou light. Q. Did they make good catches !-A. No, nothing extra. Q. How many did you catch off there -A. Well, we might catch a dozen barrels or so.
Q. Did you ever fish on the Cape Breton shore ?-A. I have been down to Margaree once. Q. In the fall 1-A. Yes. Q. Is that known to be a good fishing ground among the AmeriCAOS !-A. I have heard talk that it used to be. Q. Did you fish there ?-A. I have been there once. Q. Did you catch any fish ?-A. Nothing worth speaking of. Q. There were other vessels there; what year was that ?-A. About 1868. Q. What time of the year!-A. In the fall.
Q. That was after the mackerel-fishing in the bay was done ?-A. No, it was about the first of the month, the first of October.
Q. Is that the season when they generally go to Margaree ?-A. Yes, I have never been there but once.
Q. The time you went did they go ?-A. There was a dozen sail when I called there.
Q. How long did you stay to see whether there were fish there or Dot!-A. One day.
Q. You can't tell whether the others caught them or not ?-A. No.
Q. Nor around Bonaventure?-A. No, I have never been around Bonaventure, but I have been once at anchor at Port Daniel.
Q. Have you heard of this being a good fishing-ground !-A. No; I bave heard it mentioned that fish were caught there, but never that it was a good fishing-ground.
Q. You don't know what quantities were caught, of course?-A. No. Q. Did you ever ask whether it was good or not?-A. No.
Q. You never were a master of a vessel during those years you were in A. No; I was a mere hand.
Q. You caught 95 barrels one year, 150 another, 180 a third, and 210 another year. Were these very small catches ?-Á. Yes.
Q. And you never caught any within three miles ?-A. I don't know but we might catch a few; never anything worth speaking of.
Q. And you didn't try!-A. We did try once or twice.
Q. Had you a license to fish when you were there!—A. I could not exactly tell you.
Q. But you ran in to try ?-A. We were in making lee.