Q. How many boats are there fishing out of Tracadie?-A. Nineteen, including ours.

Q. What size boats; how many men ?-A. They averaged about four men, I should think.

Q. How did you happen to get your vessel stranded?-A. A gale of wind came up on the 21st. We parted both chains and went ashore. Q. You hope to get your vessel off?-A. Yes; I think we shall.

Q. Now have you seen the mackerel vessels there this summer ?—A. Yes; occasionally we have seen them pass up and down.

Q. What is the greatest number you have seen any one day?—A. I have seen as high as 30 sail.

Q. Do you know at all what luck they have fishing ?-A. Well, I think the general average has been pretty poor.

Q. Tell all you know about that.-A. Well, the highest trip I have known or heard of is 350 barrels, and very few at that.

Q. What vessel got that?-A. I can't tell you that; but I can tell you of the George B. Loring that got 250 barrels. I can't tell the name of one that got 350 barrels.

Q. Do you know about the result of the fishing of any other vessels?— A. I was aboard the Wildfire six weeks ago. She had got 100 barrels and had been in the bay about a month; she had 21 men.

Q. Any others?-A. That is all I know.

Q. If you have any information about any other vessels, either succeeding or failing, you may state what you know.-A. Well, I heard that the mackerel-fishing in the bay had been a failure, as near as I cau hear.

Q. Were you in the bay last year?-A. Yes.

Q. At the same place?-A. Just about the same voyage; we were not fitted quite as well as we were this year.

Q. What did you do last year, buy or catch?-A. We came mostly to buy; we caught 20 barrels.

Q. With boats --A. We had one dory and the vessel's boats.

Q. Has your experiment this year been successful?-A. No; it has been poor.

Q. Would it have been successful if you hadn't lost your vessel ?—A. No; we would have lost money if we hadn't lost our vessel.

Q. What have been the average prices of mackerel this summer at Tracadie-I mean after it is cured. Give us the highest and the lowest prices you have known.--A. The highest sold for $10.50, that is for 200 pounds of fish after they were cured.

Q. What is the lowest ?—A. $3.50.

Q. What is the average?-A. About $7.00, I should judge.

Q. Now, you have been fishing for mackerel in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in former years a good many times I believe? What was the first year you were in the gulf?-A. The first year I was in a schooner called the Saline.

Q. What year?—A. '57, I think, as near as I can tell.

Q. You must have been a boy of 14?—A. Yes; that was when I first commenced.

Q. When were you first a skipper yourself?-A. I think in '64.
Q. How many trips have you made to the bay as skipper?—A. Two;

last year and this year is all I have ever been master.

Q. When you were here before you have been as sharesman?-A. Yes. Q. But you have been a skipper in mackerel vessels elsewhere?—A. Yes; I have been on our shore.

Q. What year did you say you were first a skipper -A. '64 I think it was.

Q. I will just run rapidly through your fishing experience since that time. What was the first schooner of which you were in command ?— A. The Eclipse.

Q. What did you do the first year?-A. We followed the George's fishing until along in July. Some time in the first of July. Then fitted for mackerel on the shore between Mount Desert and Cape Cod.

Q. How many barrels of mackerel did you take off the shores of the United States that year?-A. Somewhere about 260 barrels I think.

Q. Take the next year, 1865?—A. We were in about the same business-the same voyage. We landed about the same number of barrels. Somewhere in that vicinity.

Q. When fishing off the United States coast did you make one trip or a number of trips?—A. We made a number of trips.

Q. What were you doing in 1866 ?—A. In 1866. I was in Bay Chaleurs or the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

Q. You use two terms. Do you mean one and the same thing? A. One is called the Gulf of St. Lawrence and the other the Bay ChalThe fishermen call it Bay Chaleurs sometimes.

eurs.

Q. It is the same thing you mean. The whole gulf goes by the name of Bay Chaleurs sometimes ?-A. Yes.

Q. What is the Bay Chaleurs proper ?-A. It is a small bay to the northward. The fishermen call the whole gulf Bay Chaleurs.

Q. What was the size of the vessel you were in in 1866 ?—A. About 140 tons.

Q. What was her name?-A.

Q. How many barrels of mackerel did she take?-A. 500 barrels we landed.

Q. Did you go home with that one trip?-A. Yes; we were here all the season.

Q. She was a large vessel. How many hands did she have?-A. 20

men.

Q. Now, where were these mackerel caught?-A. They were caught at different places in the bay, at Bradley, Orphan, and Magdalens, and around Margaree and Port Hood, around there in the fall. Late in the fall we got up as far as that.

Q. Have you been in the gulf fishing for mackerel since that year?A. Not until last year.

Q. How many years had you been there before 1864 ?-A. I had been here four seasons.

Q. Taking your entire fishing experience, I wish you would tell the Commission what was the principal ground on which you caught mackerel. What was the principal fishing ground?-A. Banks Bradley and Orphan, and the Magdalen Islands were our principal fishing ground. Q. Now, to what extent have you fished within three miles of the shore?-A. Well, but very little. I don't recollect ever catching but very few fish inside of three miles until this year.

Q. When you have been in boats?-A. Yes.

Q. I wish you would explain to the Commission how the vessel-fishing is carried on, and how the boat fishing is carried on, and what is the difference between them, as you understand?-A. Well, the vessel-fishing is more in deep water and offshore. They go searching after fish. In the boat-fishing, we lie and wait for the fish to come to us.

Q. Can the vessels get fish in the places where the boats usually fish?-A. Not to any extent.

Q. When the boats are fishing near shore?—A. No; never, when the boats are fishing near shore.

Q. When the boats are fishing near shore how do they take mackerel? Is it in large schools?-A. No; I think the mackerel all through the north shore, so far as I have seen, seem to be scattered and feed on bottom, and all the way we can get them is to anchor. When the vessels come in among us they never get anything at all. They have tried it this year two or three times right in among the boats, but never could do anything.

Q. Well, can the vessels catch mackerel enough to make a profitable voyage if they fish in the manner in which the boats do?—A. No, they

cannot.

Q. What is the largest number of mackerel vessels you ever saw fishing together, that you recollect?-A. In one place?

Q. Yes.-A. I think I have seen 500 sail of vessels in Boston Bay in one fleet.

Q. What is the largest number you ever saw together in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?—A. Well, I think 250 sail is the largest.

Q. Where was that?-A. Around Port Hood and Margaree in the fall of the year, when they all collected there in October.

Q. What year was it?-A. I could not tell exactly, but I think that was 1866.

Q. Have you ever fished or been for fish to the Bay Chaleur, proper? -A. Into the bay? I have been there but I never caught any fish in the Bay Chaleur at all. I have been there once or twice.

Q. Have you fished in the bend of the island; that is, Prince Edward Island, in vessels ?-A. I have tried. I have been in vessels that tried up the island, but never caught any mackerel to speak of in the bend. Q. Is it safe or dangerous?-A. It is the most dangerous place I know of in the gulf.

Q. Why?-A. Such a deep bend and shoal water. It is impossible for a vessel to get out. After a wind has been three hours blowing it would be almost impossible for a vessel to get out.

Q. How is it with respect to taking refuge in the harbors ?-A. The harbors are very dangerous to enter, except they get in before the breeze comes on or in the day time. They are not fit to enter in the night time in bad weather.

Q. Why?-A. They are barred harbors and shoal water.

Q. What do you mean by barred harbors ?-A. A bar of land stretching across the mouth.

Q. Have you ever fished in the vicinity of Margaree ?-A. I have.

Q. What time of the year?-A. October, I think.

Q. At what distance from the shore of the island have you fished in that vicinity?-A. I have fished all the way from three or four miles, but in sight of the land ten or fifteen miles off.

Q. Have you ever fished close inside of there?-A. No.

Q. Have you ever fished inside of three miles of the island ?—A. I might have been in within three miles. I don't think I have caught any fish there.

Q. Have the mackerel been found this summer in schools?-A. No. I haven't seen a school of mackerel since I have been in the bay. No large body of mackerel I haven't seen.

Q. Can the vessels make a profitable catch of fish unless there is a large school?-A. No; I don't think they can.

Q. How do you manage in boats? How have you got your 100 barrels?-A. I have been out every morning when there was a chance at

anchor, and remained until eight or nine o'clock. The highest number of fish we have caught to a man has been 260.

Q. Two hundred and sixty mackerel would make how much more or less than a barrel ?-A. The last we caught, 260 would make a barrel. The first we caught it would take nearly 300 to a barrel.

Q. How does the quality of the mackerel you have been taking this summer in boats range?—A. They range about one-third 3's, about onethird 2's, and one-third 1's.

Q. Pretty good mackerel ?—A. No. I call them pretty poor.

Q. Is that a poor average? How does it compare with the mackerel you used to take at the Magdalen Islands formerly when vesselfishing?—A. It was a good deal better than they have been this year.

Q. Have you sold these hundred barrels-A. No; I only judge about the value; I don't know.

Q. How have the boats that fished about you been doing in comparison with you?-A. They seem to think they have done very well. They seem to be satisfied.

Q. Have they caught any more than you have?—A. No; I think we have caught more than the average.

Q. Explain how it is that they can be doing well while you regard yourselves as losing money ?-A. They are under no expenses. They are farmers, part of them, and they go out fishing when it suits, so that it is nearly all gain to them. I am under a good deal of expense.

Q. Have you ever seen the boats fishing with the vessels in former years?-A. No, sir; very seldom.

Q. Have you chartered any schooners, Gloucester schooners, within one or two years?-A. No; I chartered my own last year to D. C. & H. Babson.

Q. What did you get for her charter?-A. One hundred and fifty dollars a month for four months, to go to Tracadie and buy and catch mackercl-about the same voyage as this year, only last year we went mostly to buy.

Q. How were you employed last year?-A. I was hired.

Q. On wages?-A. Yes.

Q. I suppose you have no objections to state them?-A. No; they paid me $75 a month.

Q. To take charge of the vessel and twelve men?-A. Yes.

Q. Did you get anything but that?-A. Anything except that? No, sir; only $150 a month for the vessel and $75 a month for myself. Q. How were the men paid?-A. Two were on shares, interested in the voyage, and others were hired from $35 to $15 a month.

Q. Are you speaking now of this year?-A. Last year.

Q. You only got ten barrels of mackerel last year. The result must have been unprofitable to the people who took the charter ?-A. Twenty barrels we got, as near as I know; I don't know exactly. I was told then they had sunk between $1,500 and $1,600.

Q. When a vessel is fitted out for a mackerel-trip, with a dozen men on board or thereabouts, what is the average cost of provisions per day for the men ?-A. About 45 cents.

Q. Do you mean for this year or last year?-A. I mean these last two or three years.

Q. How does that compare with what it was 7, or 8 or 10 years ago?—A. I should think it took 70 or 75 cents eight or nine years ago when things were high.

Q. Under the war prices?-A. Yes.

Q. In what depth of water do you catch mackerel ?-A. From five to teu fathoms.

Q. Taking your experience of mackerel fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, how much value do you attach to the right to catch fish within three miles of the shore?-A. Mine is not any. I will never pursue the business again in a vessel.

Q. You never would pursue it again ?-A. No; this is my first year's experience, and I don't want any more.

Q. Then, you are not employed this year?-A. No; I am on my own account.

By Mr. Weatherbe :

Q. Where did you keep your vessel ?-A. This season?
Q. Yes.-A. In Tracadie Harbor.

Q. Where was she-on the beach?-A. No; about southwest from the mouth of the harbor.

Q. Tracadie is a dangerous place, is it not?-A. Well, the harbor, I think, is very good. If you go out, it is a dangerous place outside.

Q. It is a dangerous place inside, is it not? Was it not inside you were lost?-A. We were not lost.

Q. Then it is not a dangerous place inside?-A. Well, it is not dangerous, because the vessel is there, and there is no danger. None of us were lost at all.

Q. Is it a usual thing for a vessel to go ashore inside of a harbor ?— A. Well, it is very seldom among our vessels there. There were ten boats on the beach besides myself.

Q. But do you know whether it is usual for vessels to go ashore inside? Has it ever been known before ?—A. Yes; in 1853 a large fleet went ashore-American vessels.

Q. Inside of a harbor?-A. Yes.

Q. Not since that?-A. Not that I know of.

Q. Have you heard of any on that dangerous coast of the island since that large gale ?-A. Yes; I heard of two the fifth day of last July; two Nova Scotia vessels were cast away at St. Peter's.

Q. In 1876 ?—A. Yes.

Q. Any others have you heard of -A. No.

Q. Since the great gale?-A. No; I haven't heard of others.

Q. How many have been cast away on the Magdalens?-A. Of late years? That I could not tell.

Q. Is it a dangerous place?-A. I don't consider it as dangerous as the island, the north side.

Q. But you don't know anything about how many vessels have been cast away -A. Well, I know from the experience I had there. I have had experience there, and I judge by that.

Q. I am instructed that vessels leave there in consequence of the dangers of the coast, that they leave there and come to the other shores, the mackerel fishing vessels-is that correct?-A. I don't think it is. They leave there in the fall to follow the mackerel.

Q. I got it from a very truthful man, and I want to ask you whether it is so or not, that it is such a dangerous place that they leave it early and come to other coasts, to the Cape Breton coast, Sydney, St. Ann's, and Margaree?-A. I think they go to Margaree and Port Hood. Port Hood is the best harbor on the whole coast. That is the reason, I think, they go there.

Q. That is the reason they go there?-A. Well, the mackerel gen. erally leave the Magdalens, and they follow the mackerel.