Page images
PDF
EPUB

who resided within those parishes. It was no answer to say that the administration of poor relief vested with the board of guardians, because every parish in the union would consider what burdens would be imposed on them, and would provide accordingly. If they changed all that, and declared that for the future relief should be given in the union, and that there should be a union and not a parochial settlement, he owned that he dreaded the effect which such a declaration and such an enactment might have upon labour. He did not feel satisfied if this declaration took place, whether those who now felt it incumbent upon them to provide employment would not cease to do so, and whether there would not be such a displacement of labour that the working classes in particular districts would feel the alteration to be an injury and a hardship instead of a benefit. Supposing, however, this difficulty not to be so great as he took it to be, there might still be great practical difficulties in the way. His hon. Friend the Member for Malton proposed that the rates should be levied according to the average amount of the expenditure in each parish for a certain number of years. Inequalities might exist, and although his hon. Friend might contrive some remedy for this, it must require a complicated remedy. There were also other difficulties. The case might be taken of a parish imprudently managed, where the rates had been allowed to increase in consequence of the want of employment for labour, and where now a better state of things was springing upit would surely be unjust to load the inhabitants of that parish with the consequences of their past mismanagement. At the same time, when the right hon. Gentleman, on the part of the Government, declared that he wished the instruction of his hon. Friend to be carried, he thought it but just that the right hon. Gentleman, who had in fact become the maker of this proposal, should be allowed to take the instruction with him into the Committee as he thought proper. The real practical proposition before the House was, that when they went into Committee the right hon. Gentleman should alter the whole frame of the Bill, and make another Bill in conformity with the instruction which he had adopted. The right hon. Gentleman must perceive that the proposition of his hon. Friend the Member for Malton, which was for the present year new to the country, being the proposition which in

other years had met with great opposition, ought to receive much consideration; and he must see that the mere insertion of his clauses in the Bill by no means settled the question. The country at large, which expressed so many objections before to the proposition, must have the opportunity of considering the question as a new Bill. He had said that he did not object to the course which the right hon. Gentleman thought proper to follow. He thought that when so many difficulties were in the way, the last chance which the House would have of obtaining a good measure was, by taking, in the first instance, the course which the Government recommended. Though the right hon. Gentleman had changed his mind so many times on this subject, and had proposed at one time a birth settlement, and at another a union settlement; and now proposed to alter entirely the principle of the measure which he had introduced during the present Session— though the right hon. Gentleman had done this, he was far from saying that he thought it extraordinary that the Government should hesitate on a subject of such vast importance to the people. He certainly recollected the time when the right hon. Gentleman laid down a rule, without which, he said, a Government was entitled to no confidence whatever. He said that the Government were bound to take into consideration all the questions connected with the relief of the poor, and to weigh all the facts which bore upon them carefully, but that they ought not to introduce any measure on such a subject to the House unless they were persuaded that it was the best possible scheme that could be devised. Experience, he thought, must since have convinced the right hon. Gentleman that his judgment, though so solemnly delivered, though so very oracular, was rather harsh towards those who preceded him in office. For his own part, he wished to have all the information that could be obtained upon the subject. The law was one which, in itself, had been much misunderstood. The hon. Member for Birmingham objected to the instruction, because it carried further, as he said, the principle of the New Poor Law. He (Lord John Russell) did not think it a necessary consequence of the New Poor Law that this principle should be adopted. He thought that the New Poor Law had operated for the benefit of the working classes, and not to their injury; and year after year would induce them to come over to this opinion. In

thought that his proposition should be agreed to. He believed that it was competent for the noble Lord (Lord John Russell), or any other hon. Member, to vote for the motion of the hon. Member for Malton, and afterwards oppose it in Com

course would have the effect of creating false impressions in the country. He did not rise for the purpose of making any observation upon the merits of the measure, but simply that the debate should then be adjourned.

MR. DUNCOMBE wished to say a few words as to the Amendment he thought it his duty to propose. He never could have believed that hon. Gentlemen would have adopted the Motion of his hon. Friend; but having acted as they had done on this oc

not allow such a miserable tinkering of the question; because the course the Government had adopted was nothing less. If they were to know that those alterations would be made, let the House make them in accordance with the feelings and wishes of the people. It appeared that his observations-he knew not why-had excited the wrath of the hon. Member for Durham. The hon. Member said that if the repeal of the Corn Laws had depended on him and his party, it never would have been carried. It would not now have been passed. The hon. Gentleman was pleased to say that he (Mr. Duncombe) had gone down to the manufacturing districts for the purpose of fomenting dissensions between the employer and the em

giving, however, his vote for the instruction of his hon. Friend near him, if, upon further consideration he should think that the principle of a union settlement was objectionable, he should feel at liberty to revert to the Bill in its present shape. LORD JOHN MANNERS said, that al-mittee; but still he thought that such a though he agreed with what had fallen from the noble Lord (Lord John Russell), the Member for the city of London, he thought that his noble Friend had been rather severe upon the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, in charging him with having changed his opinion. The right hon. Gentleman had informed them that he had brought in a Bill last year which he considered to be a sound one, but that he had to withdraw it, because the country did not approve of it, and that he had during the present Ses-casion, it was his opinion that they should sion introduced another Bill, although he considered it to be unsound, for the purpose of meeting the wishes of the country; and that he had now fallen back upon his original proposition, finding that it was likely to be approved of-therefore he (Lord J. Manners) thought that his noble Friend was rather severe upon the right hon. Gentleman in charging him with having changed his opinion. He wished to call the attention of the House to the state in which hon. Members might be placed, who would too implicitly rely upon the Government carrying all measures with the same reckless regard of consequences as they had shown in pressing forward a measure on a late occasion. What would be thought, he asked, of the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman the Se-ployed, and of persuading the working cretary for the Home Department had classes, that the manufacturers did not seek come forward on the part of the Govern- for the repeal of the Corn Laws for the bement, to the aid of the Motion of their nefit of those classes. Well, he maintainprofessed opponent of the measure then ed that still. He said they did not seek before the House? Whatever might be the the repeal of that law for the working advantages or the disadvantages of the classes alone. As to the charge, that if Motion of the hon. Member for Malton, he the repeal of this law depended on him, it was not then prepared to accede to it, as would not now have taken place, he was he was much more disposed to agree with sure he could see no reason why the hon. the Amendment of the hon. Member for Gentleman should say so. For twenty Finsbury, and should he press for a divi- years he had had a seat in that House, sion, he would support him with his vote. and for those twenty years he had ever MR. BORTHWICK rose for the pur-voted for a repeal of the Corn Law. The pose of moving that the debate should then hon. Gentleman had not condescended be adjourned, as many Members had left to say who were his (Mr. Duncombe's) the House, under the impression that the associates, and he was sure he did not then Amendments upon the Paper in reference know to whom the hon. Gentleman alluded. to that Bill should be considered on going He had received several invitations to into Committee; and as he was satisfied attend the League meetings, but he refused that they would desire to express their to go. He always had set his face against opinions upon those amendments, he what were called "ticket meetings.

He

Motion for the Adjournment withdrawn. The House divided on the Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:-Ayes 105; Noes 59: Majority 46.

List of the AYES.

Acland, Sir T. D.
Acland, T. D.
Arundel and Surrey,
Acton, Col.

Earl of
Baring, rt. hon. F. T.
Baring, rt. hon. W. B.

Barrington, Visct.
Beckett, W.

Berkeley, hon. C.
Bodkin, W. H.
Bowles, Adm.
Bright, J.
Broadley, H.
Brocklehurst, J.
Brotherton, J.
Bruce, Lord E.
Buller, C.
Cardwell, E.
Clay, Sir W.
Carnegie, hon. Capt.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.
Clive, hon. R. H.
Cockburn, rt. hn. Sir G.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

always declared his willingness to attend
meetings for public purposes, provided they
were open meetings; and for that reason
he had always resisted any invitation for
attempting at genteel comedy at Covent
Garden, and had refused to tumble with
certain gentlemen at Sadler's Wells. An
attempt had been made to call him to
account in Finsbury because he did not go
to tumble with these gentlemen at Sadler's
Wells, or take part in their light comedy
at Covent Garden. What was the result?
He should be glad to go to any public
meeting to ascertain public opinion. But
those gentlemen had not submitted to pub-
lic opinion. They needed not to have been
afraid of discussion if their principle was
right, as he believed it to be. They cer-
tainly had not looked to the interest of the
working classes in the manufacturing towns,
more particularly as regarded the removal
of the poor in a state of destitution and
want. His hon. Friend was wrong in the
view he had taken; if he would go with
him into the manufacturing districts, and
hold a public meeting, he was willing to
submit the case to the House and to the
public. But to return to the question
before the House. It was proposed the
debate should be adjourned, and certainly,
the opinion of the House appeared to be so
unsettled, that an adjournment might per-
haps be the best course. The noble Lord
supported the Resolution, but said he would
not pledge himself to any part of it. But
as to the Bill itself, it was that which
public opinion had condemned. What was
the use, then, of allowing this Bill to be
brought in? Here was an attempt, which
they all saw, to tinker it; and to frustrate
that attempt he certainly would take the
sense of the House on his Amendment.
If there were any other alteration to be
made, or any Amendment proposed, it
would be competent to any hon. Member
to move it afterwards. But he said that
the great principle involved was, that those
who required relief should have it; and the
House might depend on it that it was a
matter of indifference to the poor and un-
fortunate whence relief was afforded, be-
cause it must be uniform. They could not
do, therefore, a greater injustice than send-
ing them about from parish to parish. They
should be maintained by a uniform assess-
ment on the property of the county, and
the poor man should be enabled to say,
"The State is my union," and not the mi-
serable system of parishes and unions which Beresford, Maj.
was now held forth in this country.

Third

VOL. LXXXVII. {Series}

Corry, rt. hon. H.
Cripps, W.
Damer, hon. Col.
Dickinson, F. H.
Dundas, D.
Douglas, Sir C. E.
Easthope, Sir J.
Escott, B.
Estcourt, T. G. B.
Fitzroy, hon. H.
Flower, Sir J.

[blocks in formation]

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.
Smythe, hon. G.

Somerset, Lord G.
Stanley, hon. W. O.
Stansfield, W. R. C.

Stanton, W. H.
Stuart, H.
Strutt, E.

Sutton, hon. H. M.
Tancred, H. W.
Thesiger, Sir F.
Thornely, T.
Thornhill, G.

Forster, M.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.
Granger, T. C.
Heathcoat, J.
Herbert, rt. hon. S. Tollemache, hon. F. J.
Hervey, Lord A. Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Hill, Lord M.
Vesey, hon. T.
Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J. Villiers, hon. C.
Hope, G. W.
Villiers, Visct.
Wellesley, Lord C.
Wood, C.

Horsman, E.
Hotham, Lord
Howard, hon. C. W. G. Wortley, hon. J. S.
Howard, P. H.
Wrightson, W. B.
Hume, J.
Young, J.
James, W.
Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.
Jermyn, Earl
Kemble, H.

TELLERS.

Denison, E. J.
Hawes, B.

List of the NOES.

Allix, J. P.
Arkwright, G.
Balfour, J. M.
Bankes, G.
Bentinck, Lord G.

Borthwick, P.

E

Bridgeman, H.
Carew, W. H. P.
Chelsea, Visct.
Christie, W. D.
Christopher, R. A.
Chute, W. L. W.
Clifton, J. T.

[blocks in formation]

Broadley, II.

Brocklehurst, J.

Brotherton, J. Bruce, Lord E.

Carew, W. H. P.

Carnegie, hon. Capt.
Clay, Sir W.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.
Clive, hon. R. H.
Cockburn, rt. hon. Sir G.
Colebroke, Sir T. E.
Corry, rt. hon. H.

Damer, hon. Col.

Dickinson, F. H.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Dundas, D.

Easthope, Sir J.

Escott, B.

Flower, Sir J.

Forster, M.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J. Hanmer, Sir J.

Herbert, rt. hon. S.

Heathcoat, J.

Hervey, Lord A.

Hill, Lord M.

Hope, G. W.

Horsman, E.

Hotham, Lord

Howard, hon. C. W. G.
Howard, P. H.

Hume, J.
James, W.
Jermyn, Earl

Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.
Langston, J. H.

Lincoln, Earl of

M'Neill, D.

Manners, Lord C. S.

[blocks in formation]

Mitchell, T. A.
Moffatt, G.
Morpeth, Visct.
Neville, R.
Ogle, S. C. H.
Pakington, J. S.
Parker, J.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.
Peel, J.
Plumridge, Capt.
Rice, E. R.
Russell, Lord J.
Sandon, Visct.
Scott, R.

Scrope, G. P.
Shelburne, Earl of
Smith, B.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.
Smythe, hon. G.
Somerset, Lord G.
Stanley, hon. W. O.
Stansfield, W. R. C.

Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J. Stanton, W. H.

[blocks in formation]
[blocks in formation]

On the Question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,

SIR R. INGLIS said, he would not take the trouble of inquiring to whom the largest share of blame was to be imputed for the state in which the Bill then washe would not stay to inquire whether it were owing to the conduct of Her Majesty's Government in deserting the Bill, or to the noble Lord the Member for London in giving his powerful support to a principle in which he expressed his want of sympathy; or whether it might rest on those who-consistent, at all events--had refused to support the propositions of the hon. Member for Malton. It was proposed to go into Committee pro formá, though they knew the principle of the hon. Member for Malton could not be carried into effect this present Session, even if it were adThe Bill would be mitted to be feasible.

entirely altered by the effect of the Amendment, and it would be hardly possible to effect the Parliamentary alterations in less time than the discussion on the Bill could be reopened.

MR. T. DUNCOMBE said, that the Bill had now become the Bill of his hon. Friend; and he would ask if the hon. Gentleman was prepared to bring forward his clauses at that moment? It was proposed that the Government should introduce the alterations in the Bill; but were there not others who might wish to move instructions with a view to amendments in the Bill. The Irish Coercion Bill had been fixed for Monday; but in his opinion they would be better employed on Monday, in discussing a Bill the object of which was connected with the relief of the poor in England, than in proposing a Coercion Bill for Ireland; and he would move that this Bill should have precedence on Monday.

with the Gentleman who had carried the instructions. That Gentleman would then make known his clauses, and on which both would no doubt agree. He would be answerable for the introduction of the clauses, and he would then ask the House to go into Committee pro formá on Monday, when a day could be fixed for further progress.

COLONEL SIBTHORP observed, that the right hon. Baronet who had just sat down stated he had not deserted the Bill; but he was of opinion that he had not only deserted the measure, but that such desertion had not been his first. He had seen in the division that night a Lord of the Treasury and a Lord of the Admiralty voting on different sides of the House. He was not aware those official persons ought to have been found where they were seen. The Government would, perhaps, think so, as respected one at least. For himself, he MR. HENLEY objected to proceeding was glad to find that hon. Gentlemen were with the Committee of the Bill at twelve sufficiently independent to exercise their o'clock at night. It would look like a own opinion; and he trusted that they fraud to the people of England to proceed would eventually resolve to shake off their at that hour, and without further considera-subserviency in other matters. tion, with clauses affecting the rating, which was the whole gist of the Bill. The proposition to alter the Bill ought to be for some time before the country, in order that the people could express their opinion of it when a Bill was to be proposed totally different from that which the Government had brought forward at the commencement of the Session; to proceed at once with a measure of which the country had no intimation, would be looked upon by the country as a fraud.

Committee deferred till Monday.

ROYAL OBSERVATORY, GREENWICH. SIR R. INGLIS would ask the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government whether he had obtained any report as to the injury which it was feared might be caused to the Royal Observatory at Greenwich, by the construction of a railway, the Bill for which was before the House? He was desirous to know if the right hon. Baronet would object to lay any such report on the Table to-night. If the report had not as yet been received, he hoped the hon. Member who had charge of the Railway Bill would postpone the second reading until the report was in the hands of Members.

SIR J. GRAHAM observed, that he had no intention of deserting the measure for which he stood responsible. He had been exposed to the taunts of both sides of the House; but these would not induce him to relax in any course he might consider it his duty to follow. The hon. Member for Oxfordshire had, for one, used expressions towards him which he thought scarcely SIR R. PEEL said, that at an earlier warranted by the usages of debate or of period of the evening he was informed that House. Of that, however, he wished that one or two reports had been received; to say nothing more. He had a sugges-but he had just been informed that all the tion to make with reference to the measure reports had been received, and were in posnow before the House, which he would session of the Admiraity, and he had no offer to the hon. Member for Malton, and doubt that he would be able to lay them if accepted, he thought ultimately it would on the Table on Monday. He trusted prove for the benefit of all parties. The that the hon. Member who had charge of suggestion was this, that the House would the Railway Bill would postpone the second allow the further discussion of the Bill to reading until the Members of the House stand over until Monday. In the interval had an opportunity of reading those rehe should have an opportunity of conferring ports.

« ՆախորդըՇարունակել »