peared that this actual knowledge about which the noble Earl was so peremptory, EARL GREY: My noble and learned Friend had charge of this business. LORD BROUGHAM: I never knew any-had dwindled down to probable knowledge thing of it; I was never told of it. EARL GREY: On my own personal authority, I can contradict that. My noble and learned Friend, I know, did know it. LORD BROUGHAM: Never heard a word of it. EARL GREY: I know as well as possible that my noble and learned Friend was informed of the arrangement. LORD BROUGHAM: No doubt I was cognizant of the arrangement after it was made; it must have been communicated to me. EARL GREY said, that at that time the attention of the Government was particularly directed to the subject by the report of Lord Ashburton's Committee, and many salaries were reduced in consequence. The noble and learned Lord was Lord Chancellor at the time, and must have been aware of the proceeding, for it could not have taken place without his sanction. There could be no doubt then that the noble Lord was cognizant of and authorized what had taken place, for it was his business more than that of any other Member of the Government to look into the matter. In consequence of what had taken place, he could say, that he was sure that his noble Friend at the head of the Government would direct his attention to the subject; and, if it was deemed necessary, a Bill would be brought forward, so that a more regular form of proceeding might be adhered to. only. Now, the facts of the case were these: he (Lord Brougham) did not know of the proceeding until he received a communication from two learned Judges, the late Mr. Justice Bosanquet and Mr. Justice Patteson, remonstrating on the step that had been taken after the arrangement had taken place. The noble Earl had stated, that he ought to have done that under the circumstances which the noble Earl was himself unable to do, viz., pass an Act of Parliament under circumstances which it was impossible to do; that is, to pass an Act when he was, as the noble Earl was himself now, in a minority in that House. And what would have happened if he had brought in a Bill on the subject? Why, it would have been thrown out. But he should not have approved of any Bill of the kind; for he thought that 10,000l. a year was a fit and proper salary of the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench. An appointment had just been made to the office of Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, and this induced him to bring forward the subject. The salaries of the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench had been fixed at 10,000l. a year, and of the Common Pleas at 8,000l. a year, by Act of Parliament. The noble Earl, however, said that they were justified in going from this, not by a more recent Act of Parliament, nor by a report, or resolutions of both Houses, and sanctioned by the Crown, but by a report of a Committee of LORD BROUGHAM had not addressed the other House, without any Act having himself to the noble Earl, but to a noble passed. He was not learnt in this fashion Lord, who at the time held a much higher in the Constitution of England, that a Reoffice in the Government than the noble solution of a Committee of the House of Earl, and who would naturally know more Commons should be an equivalent for an about the matter. The noble Earl had taken Act of Parliament. The noble Earl, howupon himself to say, on his own personal ever, said that it was of no consequenceknowledge, that he (Lord Brougham) knew that it would not be abused; he added, that at the time which he on his honour however, that it might be better, as a matstated that he was ignorant of. He had ter of form, to have an Act, but still everyasked for information from the real head of body would be able to know what was rethe Government in that House, the noble ceived, so that no abuse would exist. This Marquess, whose absence he regretted; everybody would assent' meant anybody and he (Lord Brougham) stated, that he might do so. This 'everybody' was a was not aware of the circumstance at the most convenient person to enable any one time; but the noble Earl must get up and to escape from a difficulty, and to put contradict him, and say that he did know of forward when it was desirable that no it. When, however, the noble Earl pro- one should be responsible. When they ceeded, it appeared that he (Lord Broug- abolished the sale of offices of the courts ham) must know of it, because he was Lord by the Judges and up to that peChancellor at the time, therefore it was riod, the proceeding was perfectly legal that he probably knew of it. So that it ap--they increased the salary of the Lord Chief Justice to 10,000l. a year. What he objected to was, that when the Act of Parliament said that the learned person filling that office should have 10,000l. a year, the Government made a private bargain, so that he should receive only 8,000l. If this proceeding was sanctioned, the greatest mischief might be produced, as the Government might be inclined to dole out what additional salaries it pleased to the Judges. But it was said that this would be seen in the Estimates; but this again was everybody's business, to look after which, after all, nobody might do. He had put to the Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas a question on this point -and no one could be more entitled to the full amount than that learned person, above all, considering the large professional emoluments he received-namely, as to whether he was aware of the cutting down of the salary of that officer from 8,000l. to 7,000l. a year, and he said no, and that he should think twice before he took it. LORD CAMPBELL must agree entirely with his noble and learned Friend opposite, that things should not remain as they were; and that, if it were necessary, an Act of Parliament ought to be immediately brought in to remedy the defect. The salaries of the Judges ought not to depend upon any arrangement between the Judges and the Government. Now, his noble Friend who sat near him had intimated no opinion on this subject-on the contrary, he had stated in the most distinct terms that the noble Lord now at the head of the Government would inquire into it, and that if it were necessary an Act of Parliament should be introduced for remedying the matter. There could be no doubt that if there had been an Act of Parliament passed, if Lord Denman or any of his executors chose to insist on their rights, they would be entitled to recover the balance of the whole of the specified salary. His noble and learned Friend opposite ought, if he felt that these matters required a remedy, to have brought in an Act when he occupied the seat on the Woolsack; he was the party that should have seen that all these things were right. His noble and learned Friend had said that he could not have carried such a Bill. He (Lord Campbell) knew that his noble and learned Friend had carried Bills despite of the large majorities with which his measures were threatened; and he also knew that if he had introduced a Bill on this subject, it would have passed both Houses VOL. LXXXVII. {T} Third of the Legislature with perfect unanimity. His noble and learned Friend could not say that he disapproved of the arrangement, as he continued to hold the Great Seal; and he (Lord Campbell) knew his spirit and his courage too well to suppose that had he failed in carrying such a measure he would not have continued to hold office; he would not suffer his opinion on such a subject to be overruled. His noble and learned Friend threw great blame on himself for this proceeding, and appeared to feel that he had been greatly in the wrong; and in this he (Lord Brougham) reminded him of the Pope who, finding himself in error, exclaimed "Judice me cremari," "I condemn myself, and order myself to be burnt. LORD BROUGHAM explained. The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed with his noble and learned Friend that it was irregular to reduce the salaries of the Judges without an Act of Parliament; there ought to have been an Act of Parliament; and when his noble and learned Friend found out that the Lord Chief Justice's salary had been reduced, then he should have put it either into proper form, or the salary should have remained 10,0007. Either the salary ought to remain 10,0007., or there ought to be an Act of Parliament to make it 8,000l. His noble and learned Friend alluded to some supposed understanding with the present Lord Chief Justice; but he utterly disbelieved that anything of the kind had passed. He succeeded to the office, and of course succeeded to the office with all the emoluments belonging to it. Subject at an end. THE THAMES EMBANKMENT BILL. VISCOUNT CANNING moved the Second Reading of the Bill for embanking the river Thames at the northern side, between Vauxhall-bridge and Battersea-bridge. It was also proposed that a new bridge should be built across the river somewhere about Chelsea Hospital. The expense would be about 160,000l., which would not, however, be charged to the public. The noble Marquess behind him (the Marquess of Westminster), and other owners of property in the locality, had dealt very liberally with reference to those improvements, and the whole amount of their contributions was estimated at something between 40,000l. and 50,000l. The tolls would not, he thought, be overestimated at something like 6,000l., which would 20 pay something more than 10 per cent of the cost of the bridge. LORD KINNAIRD observed that the Report of the Metropolitan Termini Commissioners recommended that the mode of communication between the south and north sides of the river should be by a bridge somewhere in the direction referred to; and he (Lord Kinnaird) suggested that it would be worthy of consideration whether the bridge now proposed to be constructed would combine both purposes. VISCOUNT CANNING, as a Member of the Committee to whose Report the noble Lord had referred, was of opinion that the bridge, to answer the purpose contemplated by them, should be very far westward of Chelsea Hospital. Bill read 2a. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MINUTES.] NEW WRIT. For Sutherland, v. David Dun das, Esq., Solicitor General. NEW MEMBERS SWORN. Thomas Milner Gibson. Ebrington. For Manchester, Right Hon. Erection of Free Churches (Scotland), and praying the Rural Deanery of Wenlock, in the Diocese of Hereford, a Bishop to the newly erected See of Manchester.- From Inhabitants of the Districts of Muswell Brook and Merton, in the Colony of New South Wales, praying the House to admit Wheat, Maize, and Flour, the Produce of Aus tralia, into the United Kingdom on the same Terms as Wheat, Maize, and Flour, the Produce of Canada. By Sir William Codrington, from Farmers, Landowners, and others, in the Hamlet of Mangersbury, and from Church wardens, Overseers, and Guardians of the Poor of Stow on the Wold, for Rating Owners of Small Tenements to Brentford, Hounslow, Isleworth, and the Vicinity, for Tobacco.-By Mr. Blackburne, from Inhabitants of War on tobacco, with a view to the revision and F. Lloyd and Co., Manufacturers of Tobacco and for Repeal or Alteration of Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act.-By Mr. Christopher, from Thomas Johnson, and others, for a Superannuation bitants of Bury, for the Abolition of the Punishment of Fund for Poor Law Officers.-By Mr. Bury, from Inha Death. TOBACCO DUTIES. DR. BOWRING rose for the purpose of bringing forward his Motion on the duty 1844, 583; 1845, 702; and in 1846, 872. The ratio in Ireland and in Scotland was even greater; for while in England they were 102 per cent, in Ireland they were 252 per cent, and in Scotland 451 per cent; but of 333 persons convicted last year of smuggling tobacco in quantities exceeding 100 lbs., only fifteen persons had paid any fines, and the aggregate amount of those fines was only 8051. The enormous charges that fell upon the pub lie in consequence deserved consideration; | Jersey, which we understood him to say 1,478 prisoners had to be maintained in amounted to not less than twelve tons of jail, at a cost of more than 5,000l., with- tobacco per month. He also adverted to out reference to the cost of prosecutions the quantity of Dutch snuff sold in Lonand other incidental expenses. It was don, none of which was legally imported. grievous to see, also, that the greater por- On the whole, he estimated that not less tion of the parties convicted of smuggling than 21,747,000 lbs. of tobacco were tobacco were British sailors. In Hull, fraudulently introduced every year. No out of 85 persons, no fewer than 57 were doubt chemical and microscopic arts had sailors. At least one-third of the seamen much advanced of late years, and had from the Baltic, and employed in crossing been employed in aid of the revenue to the Atlantic, were habitually engaged in detect adulterations of tobacco; but the ildefrauding the revenue. The hon. Mem-legal trader was also able to avail himself ber next called attention to the amount of of the assistance of science; and he (Dr. tonnage of shipping he supposed to be Bowring) contended that in many cases more or less concerned in this illegal trade; innocent dealers, who had been the dupes maintaining, on evidence taken by the of others in the purchase of adulterated Committee, that there was scarcely a ves- tobacco, had been unduly convicted. It sel engaged in coasting that did not to was known that in some cases the Excise some extent contribute to the smuggling had been obliged to make ample restituof tobacco. Testimony of the most re- tion to parties, as it appeared afterwards, markable kind had been obtained to show falsely accused, but duly convicted on the in what way whole cargoes were clandes- mistaken evidence of philosophers employtinely, yet openly, introduced into the ed by Government to detect the adulteravery heart of the metropolis. One gentle- tion of tobacco. This was one of the man had imported geese and fowls from many evils arising out of the present sysabroad, in crates; and these crates were tem, and calling loudly for a large reduccomposed of nothing but twisted tobacco, tion of duty. There was a general feelwhich were seen and handled by the cus-ing, in which he concurred, that tobacco tom-house officers without detection. He was a fit object for taxation; but that dilated upon the seminaries for smuggling taxation must not be so high as to existing in various parts of the Empire, maximise the motives of the smuggler and upon the manner in which children to defraud the revenue. While people were employed in the contraband introduc- were considering how many millions stertion of tobacco; beginning as smugglers ling were paid into the Treasury, they and ending as thieves. He contended that forgot the amount of crime and wretchedpublic opprobrium did not attach to of-ness produced by this species of legislation. fences of the kind; nay, that sympathy was often felt for the parties accused, and that smuggling was carried on by wholesale as well as by retail, in cargoes or in small quantities; and that it employed the rich as well as the poor, the merchant as well as the beggar who could only muster a few pence to risk in an adventure. He adverted also to the heavy cost of the coast-guard, amounting to 600,000l. or 700,000l. per annum, much of which might be saved if the duty were lowered, and the inducement to smuggle thereby diminished. It was the general belief that the amount of smuggled tobacco was at least equal to that on which duty was paid. In one district there were introduced 26,686 lbs., in another 48 bales of 60l. each. Having called the attention of the House to a table that had been prepared with great care, containing the results of the evidence the Committee had taken, he went on to notice the smuggling from In 1843 the number of sailors employed in the Baltic and United States' trade was 96,920; and of that number there was scarcely an individual who was not more or less a user and importer of illicit tobacco. To these were to be added 131,462 sailors engaged in the coasting trade, most of whom contrived to get tobacco similarly introduced; and between both some idea might be formed of the number of persons employed under the existing system of duties in defrauding the revenue by the use of illicit tobacco. He thought these facts were sufficient to justify him in saying that the Government were called upon to institute an inquiry into the operation of these duties, more especially at a time when a general investigation of the financial affairs of the country was thought advisable. He would appeal to the noble Lord whether he would allow the enormous mass of offence and misery exhibited by this return to be passed over, and whether he would not be ready to put an end to it, | bers were apt to object to some of its even by some small sacrifice to the revenue, clauses. He proposed a clause enacting by a reduction on the tobacco duties. He, that copyhold and customary lands may be however, entertained strong doubts whe- exchanged with the consent of the lord of ther such a reduction would be followed by the manor. This was in analogy with the any loss to the revenue whatever, as he Tithe Commutation Act, with this differbelieved it likely that a reduction in the ence, that the exchange under the Tithe duty would be made up by the increased Commutation Act was compulsory, whereas consumption to which it must lead. He this Act proceeded upon an opposite prinhoped that if the House agreed with himciple, that of agreement. Another clause on these points, they would permit him to authorized boundaries of leasehold to be move that "it is the opinion of the House declared in award, setting out the boundathat the tobacco duties require an early ries of copyhold or customary lands, or by inquiry into their operation and effects.' distinct award. Reported. Commons Inclosure (No. 2). 3o and passed. Battersea Park. Bill passed through Committee. CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL. MR. HUME moved the Second Reading of the Charitable Trusts Bill. As serious objections had been taken to this measure, he thought he should best fulfil the object in view by merely retaining those clauses which secured the accountability of those who had charge of public money. the duty of the House, after the expense which had been incurred in inquiries, to have some accounts available that would show how the revenues of each trust had been expended. It was not his intention to include the Bible Society, and other re It was PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Colonel Thomas Wood, from ligious trusts or charities where the found Farmers, Gardeners, and other Persons interested in preserving Good and Commodious Public Roads, residing in the Western Part of Middlesex, and the Counties Adjacent, for Alteration of the Highways Bill.-By Captain Pechell, from Inhabitants, Householders, Traders, and Residents in the Vicinity of Westminster Abbey, for the Redemption of the Tolls on Waterloo and other Bridges. COMMONS ENCLOSURE BILL. House resolved in Committee pro formá upon the Commons Enclosure Bill. MR. HUME thought it would be better to repeal the former Bill and re-enact it, with the additions, in the present, so that the whole measure would be made to harmonize together, otherwise ordinary men would be unable to make it out. ers were alive, but those only where the individuals were dead. The principle of the Bill was to secure the accountability of persons intrusted with public moneys. SIR G. GREY should not offer any opposition to the second reading of this Bill; but the House must not suppose that this was a substitute for another Bill, which had been thrown out in the other House, or for a more general measure. MR. BROTHERTON considered this a very valuable Bill, and one which would give great satisfaction to the country. MR. T. EGERTON inquired whether, in the case of mixed funds, it was intended to require accounts of all the moneys? MR. HUME: My object is, that there should be in that case a balance-sheet of the moneys received and expended, whether the parties were dead or alive. SIR J. GRAHAM agreed on principle with the hon. Member that, generally speaking, it was advisable to consolidate the law when alterations were made in antecedent Acts of Parliament. But he could not say that this was a Bill to which that general principle applied. The antecedent Bill passed only last Session; the present Bill extended and enlarged its powers, but it was not necessary to repeal and re-enact them. When an Act so recently passed was brought again before the House, Mem-set. MR. BERNAL said, his hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) perhaps had not considered the sea of difficulties he would have to encounter, though his intentions were good. If he attacked the city of London, he would find that a very strong body to deal with, and would meet obstacles at the very outDid he contemplate meddling with |