similar agreements with the chiefs all along | bishops were highly respected; and it was the coast, it was obvious that that would go a great way to prevent the continuance of the Slave Trade.

Agreed to.

House resumed.

again.

House adjourned at One o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS,

Monday, July 20, 1846.

MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS.-1a. New Zealand Loan.
2. Saint Asaph and Bangor and Manchester Dioceses.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Duke of Buccleuch, from

Bristol, and a great number of other places, against the

Union of Saint Asaph and Bangor, but in favour of the

Appointment of a Bishop to the See of Manchester.

ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR AND MAN

CHESTER DIOCESES BILL.

The Order of the Day for the Second Reading of this Bill being read,

deeply regretted that they would not have successors. The Commissioners felt that it was necessary, in order to palliate the destruction of the see, and qualify the Committee to sit evil thus inflicted, to hold out some bonus to the Principality; and therefore their first report recommended that when the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor were united, the surplus income should be applied to the augmentation of their smaller benefices. He felt he was now introducing the subject to their Lordships' notice under different circumstances than heretofore; Sir R. Peel and his late Colleagues had been succeeded in the Government by the noble Marquess the President of the Council, and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack as Lord Chancellor. He asked those noble Lords, in the station in which they stood, to do justice to his countrymen and his Church, in consequence of the alterations made in the second report The EARL of POWIS (who was imper- of the Commissioners, to which they fectly heard), said that it was not his in- had made themselves a party. He aptention, on the present occasion, to enter pealed to the noble Marquess, and asked into any long statistical statement. He him, if a case of a similar character as had trespassed too often on former occa- this occurred to him in private life, how he sions to render it desirable to address their would act? If the noble Marquess had Lordships at greater length than was ne- obtained power over a property upon the cessary to bring the question distinctly be- promise of certain considerations, whether fore them. He would therefore at once he would, after having gained possession bring to their Lordships' notice the cir- of the property, first decline to perform cumstances under which this application the conditions, and insist upon retaining was made. Their Lordships were aware the property for which he had refused the that in the year 1835 a Commission was consideration? He should like to see how appointed to consider the state of the Es- a person who presumed to suggest such a tablished Church. Amongst other topics course would be dealt with in Lansdowne which occupied the consideration of the House-whether he would not have the Commissioners was a project of establish- alternative, and but short time for delibeing a bishopric of Manchester, and in con- ration, submitted to him, of taking himnexion therewith of uniting the two sees self off either by the door or the window ? of St. Asaph and Bangor. The reason His countrymen were the parties who felt given for that union was an objection exist- that they had not been fairly dealt with ing on the part of certain persons to an in- in respect to this measure, and comcrease of the episcopacy of the Establish- plained of the considerations entered into ment. The union of the two old sees of with them having been withheld. On St. Asaph and Bangor was not a popu- the part of his poor countrymen he felt lar question, and it was necessary, in himself called upon to bring forward the order to make it palatable, that some con- present proposition, in the hope that that sideration should be held out as an induce- consideration would be given to it which ment to accede to it. The inducement that House of Parliament invariably gave held out was the importance of establish- to questions of property such as this ing in the great and powerful district of was when weakness appealed to their Manchester, and other parts of Lanca-justice. He knew no better way of bringshire, the immediate superintendence of ing the case before their Lordships than by a bishop. Their Lordships acquiesced in the importance and justice of such a proceeding; but the deprival of one of their bishops was not very popular with the people of the Principality. Both the

reading a petition which he had the honour early in these proceedings to present and read to the House, which petition embodied in eloquent language the case of his countrymen and their Church. The petition

emanated from the inhabitants of the Isle
of Man, and was as follows:-

66

That your petitioners will ever most gratefully remember the powerful co-operation and the generous support which, in that arduous struggle, they received from the universities, the various chapters, archdeaconries, and numerous bodies of the clergy and laity of England and Wales, in ad

vocating their cause with your right honourable House; and still more do your petitioners feel impressed with gratitude to the Parliament of the United Kingdom for their gracious compliance with the earnest prayers of the Manx people. That your petitioners feel in a peculiar manner the affinity between the sees of Sodor and Man, of St. Asaph and of Bangor (I entreat your Lordships' particular attention to the following sentences)—all bishoprics of independent States for many centuries previously to the Isle of Man and the Principality of Wales being incorporated in the British dominions-all in the earliest time endowed with funds for the maintenance of their several churches within their respective dioceses -all amid the revolutions of succeeding ages, the change of dynasties, and the reformation in the Anglican Church, preserved unimpaired by the storms of time or the sacrilegious hand of arbitrary power;—and all having poor, scattered populations, requiring the entire care and attention of the most zealous bishop. With these recollections, your petitioners feel themselves called upon as fellow Christians to return good for good, sympathy for sympathy, and most respectfully to express their earnest hope to your honourable House that these two most interesting remains of the episcopacy of former days, which ages of barbarism, of war, and of revolution have spared, may not, in these enlightened times, be sacrificed to the expediency of measures which, however other wise important, they beg leave most respectfully to express their hope, may by other means be at tained. That the ancient revenues of these sees may not be diverted from their legitimate object to assist in founding another see in a district unconnected with their own, and which is one of the most wealthy in the kingdom, but that the inhabitants of North Wales, by the blessing of Divine Providence, and through the wisdom and the justice of Parliament, for all time yet to come may be permitted to retain unchanged the incalculable advantages of their present Episcopal Establishment; and each see to continue to possess

stitutional power with which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had been invested, which gave to their fiat the effect of an Act of Parliament, and at the same time deprived his countrymen of those means of resisting an arbitrary measure in the various stages of its progress through the House of Parliament, which the usage of Parliament gave to all whose rights and privileges were interfered with by its authority. With respect to the union of the two sees, he would affirm that the measure of which he complained would never have been carried, if it had been obliged to stand the test of discussion in their Lordships' House, instead of being silently established by Order in Council. He would now take leave to read to their Lordships an address to himself from the incumbents of livings under 2007. per annum in the archdeaconry of Montgomery. a request from himself that they would be It was in reply to pleased to express their opinions of the respective measures proposed by Lord Monteagle and himself. The address did

honour to the poor but exemplary men from whom it emanated. He (Lord Powis) was proud to be allowed the honour of calling himself their countryman :

-

"TO THE RIGHT HON. THE EARL OF POWIS, K. G.

May it please your Lordship-We, the undersigned incumbents of small benefices in the diocese of St. Asaph, beg leave to approach your Lordship with every sentiment of gratitude for the zealous efforts in which your Lordship is so nobly persevering to recue the Church in North Wales from the reckless spoliation with which it is threatened.

66

Your Lordship has announced a desire in your letter lately addressed to the dean and chapter and clergy of St. Asaph, That the opinion of the clergy of the North Wales dioceses should be distinctly expressed in respect of Lord Monteagle's and your own course of proceeding.'

66

We, therefore, as humble Members of that

body, lose no time in responding to this appeal by making public our emphatic declaration that we indignantly repudiate the very thought of wishing to avail ourselves of any such disposition of the episcopal revenues as that contemplated by Lord Monteagle.

"We feel no shame in avowing our poverty, nor the satisfaction with which any legitimate increase of worldly means would be hailed by any or all of us; but if we would shrink from the offer bare idea of sharing in spoils arising from what of being enriched by any violation of the rights of private property, still more do we recoil from the we consider a most unjustifiable act of interference with ecclesiastical endowment.

a separate resident Bishop to preside over their churches, and personally to superintend and promote the spiritual and the temporal welfare of the people; and that at a time when it has been deemed expedient by the Government, and sanctioned by the Crown, to consecrate Prelates to all the widely-extended Colonies of the Empire, in the four quarters of the globe, and even to the more recently discovered shores of Australia; and whilst the rapidly augmenting population of the British Isles would appear likewise to demand an augmentation of episcopal superintendence, your petitioners would willingly hope that the next step in this great work will not be connected with the extinction of one of the very ancient bishopries of the most ancient people of Britain." The noble Earl then proceeded to refer to the petitions he had presented that evening from Gloucester, Essex, Manchester, and other places, and condemned the uncon-honour to remain, &c."

"With unceasing prayers that it may please
able issue to your Lordship's exertions, and
God of His mercy and goodness to grant a favour-

to ward off the blow which we are more and
disastrous results to the Church-We have the
more convinced would be followed by the most

The

These were amongst the many reasons | Church, and practically to enforce those doctrines which justified him in again pressing this which were embodied by her venerable reformers in her Liturgy, Articles, and Homilies; and they subject upon their Lordships' notice. He are anxious to record their conviction that no begged to remind their Lordships that presumed advantage from the problematical inof the Members of the Commission ap-crease to the incomes of the parochial clergy can pointed to report upon the union of the in any way compensate the interests of religion sees of St. Asaph and Bangor, no less than in North Wales for the diminution of the number of our spiritual overseers." three of them, men of weight and authority with their Lordships, had avowedly changed It was signed by 160 or 170 clergymen, their opinions upon the subject-the Arch- and pointed out in strong and forcible bishop of York, Lord Harrowby, and Mr. terms the mischief and inconvenience that Williams Wynn, another highly respect- would result from such a measure. able Member of the Ecclesiastical Com- noble Earl called upon their Lordships to mission. He believed there never was a retrace steps discouraging to the Protestant case in which the right rev. Bench had religion in North Wales, and particularly given their opinion more decidedly than objectionable at a moment when a rival they had as to the impropriety of the Roman Catholic establishment was in prounion of these sees. The clergy almost gress of erection in sight of the cathedral universally were opposed to the measure, of St. Asaph, which the Act he objected and he thought he had said quite enough to proposed to deprive of its spiritual head; to justify the course he had taken in and concluded by moving the second readasking their Lordships to assent to a repealing of the Bill, which was the same as that of those portions of the 6th and 7th of William the Fourth to which he objected. The transfer of the noble Marquess and his Friends from one side of the House to the other, might not, perhaps, be attributable wholly to the course the late Government had pursued with regard to the union of those sees; but he had no doubt the opposition of the late Government had created a feeling which had had its influence in producing the results which they now witnessed. The noble Earl then referred to the petition that had been presented from the Dean and Chapter and Clergy of the Archdeaconry of St. Asaph against the union of those sees :

EXTRACT FROM THE PETITION OF THE DEAN AND
CHAPTER AND ARCHDEACONS AND CLERGY OF THE

DIOCESE OF ST. ASAPH.

of last year, with the exception of a few verbal alterations.

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said, it devolved upon him to state to their Lordships the grounds on which he felt it his duty to resist the Motion of the noble Earl. The difficulties under which he laboured in asking their Lordships' attention to that subject, arose not so much from their Lordships not being acquainted with it, as from the great familiarity which they had acquired with the subject, and the frequent discussions that had taken place. The noble Earl who had introduced the subject to their attention on former occasions at great length, had, on the present occasion, treated it much more briefly, although not less energetically and powerfully; and he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) would imitate his example, and state, as concisely as he could, the reasons that induced him to oppose the Motion of the noble Earl. Their Lordships should bear in mind, in order to arrive at a fair conclusion on the subject, the date and origin of the Commission which was issued by the Crown on the subject. The changes that had been recommended and adopted could not be viewed in an isolated point of view, but must be considered as a system of changes, each of them hinging upon the other, as weakened in its day of adversity, and that the they were recommended to the Crown and efficient superintendence which can alone meet the to Parliament. In 1835, under the admigrowing exigencies of their country may be pre-nistration of Sir R. Peel and the noble served unimpaired, a monument of the Legislature's gracious care for the Church, and a security for the religious welfare of all future gene

"Your petitioners fondly hope that the same period in which the peculiar claims and feelings of the inhabitants of the sister island have received additional proofs of liberality, may not witness the violation of the most ancient and valued institutions of the Church in Great

Britain.

Your petitioners ask not for any accession of income or augmentation of honours; but they respectfully deprecate the extinction in their own district of that apostolical office the benefits of which your wisdom has lately extended to our most distant Colonies; they humbly pray that the primitive Church of their forefathers may not be

rations.

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Your petitioners further declare that their sole object is to preserve the efficiency of the

Duke the Commander in Chief, whom he did not then see in his place, a Commission was issued for the purpose of considering the most effectual mode of improving the condition of the Church. That

could not be found, took up the cause of these petitioners, and brought the subject under their Lordships' consideration. During these five or six years to which he had referred, had the Commissioners been idle --had their functions lain dormant? By no means. During these five or six years, the Principality of Wales was gaining by the operation of the Commission. It would not be contended that legislation for Wales should proceed on a different principle from legislation in reference to the rest of the Empire; at all events, they could not claim to be part of the United Empire when anything was to be given away, and refuse to be so regarded when anything was to be conceded. He found that these petitioners never objected in the least when anything was to be given them. They allowed two Welsh sees to be greatly augmented; they al

Commission made a report, after having maturely considered the whole state of the Church, in which he found four principles laid down the first was, that they were not prepared to recommend any increase in the number of sees in England; the second, that they were prepared to recommend the union of particular sees in cases where the sees were of such dimensions as to make it practicable for one bishop to exercise the united functions of both sees; thirdly, they recommended the establishment of certain new bishoprics; and fourthly, they recommended a new distribution of the lands annexed to the bishoprics. Looking at these four recommendations, their Lordships would find that, with the exception of the last, which related to the distribution of land, the recommendations were necessarily dependent on each other, and must form part of one scheme; and it was un-lowed advantages to be conferred on Wales doubtedly with this view that their Lordships had given their ample assent to the principles laid down by the Commission, at the head of which was the Primate of England and the metropolitan Bishop of this great city. In saying this, he negatived at once the idea of reckless spoliation, to which the petition referred to by his noble Friend alluded. Their Lordships had given their implied sanction to the report of the Commission. Why did he say so? Because the report of that Commission was laid on the Table of the House in 1835; it was afterwards circulated by means of the newspapers amongst the public. In the following year an Act of Parliament, carrying into effect the recommendations of the Commissioners, was brought in and unanimously passed, with all the formalities and notoriety which necessarily attended the passing of all important Acts through that and the other House of Parliament. From that time the Commissioners, to whom the execution of that Act was entrusted, had gone on in the performance of their duty. Six years elapsed before the propriety, the wisdom, or the expediency of that Act was even called in question. In that interval there were two changes of Administrations, and two dissolutions of Parliament; and these petitioners might assuredly during that period, and amidst these changes, have found one Government or another, one Parliament or another, more or less favourable to their views and feelings. Yet it was not till 1843, that, instigated no doubt by the most laudable and patriotic feelings towards the Principality of Wales, his noble Friend, than whom a more worthy representative

under the proceedings of this Commission, the result of which was a balance in favour of that country of not less than 2,0007. a year; and it was a most odd coincidence that they first brought forward this question at the very time when the Principality had received the maximum of all it could receive, and the minimum of all it could give. It was quite true that unless they succeeded now they might hereafter not be so well off as at present, under the operation of the Commission. He would not trouble their Lordships with figures, but would content himself with assuring their Lordships that, if the whole recommendations of the Commission under the Act were carried out, the balance in favour of Wales ultimately would be 500l. a year. He trusted he had disposed of the case of the Principality of Wales; but he disclaimed putting the question on that ground: he protested against that Principality being considered on separate grounds, and as not subject to any general scheme of improvement applicable to the rest of the Empire, recommended after the best consideration by the prelates of the Church for the whole United Kingdom. Such was the view of the Commissioners. The Commissioners, feeling with their Lordships the high value of the episcopal authority, and being convinced that the recognised superintendence of bishops was identical with the beneficial administration of the Established Church, saw that a proper distribution of this authority was the only effectual mode of attaining this object: they saw that a new arrangement of the bishoprics in England and Wales would contribute essentially to the effect