read a Second Time, this House will appoint a Select Committee to take them into Consideration, to classify them according to their public Importance, and to select such as it may seem expedient to pass.

"3. That it be an Instruction to the said Com

mittee not to select, for passing, Bills by which it
shall be proposed to raise Capital exceeding
borrowing Money.”
60,000,000l., whether by the issue of Shares or
He would remark with respect to this Re-
solution, that he would not object to the
sum being named as 50,000,000l., if it
were thought preferable; but he had been
desirous, in framing the Resolution, to
give a large margin.

Commons requesting a Conference on the Subject
"4. That a Message be sent to the House of
of such Railway Bills as have originated in this
House, and are now pending in the House of
Commons."

them into effect. He ought to add that some of those Bills included in that calculation had already passed; but if an allowance of 10,000,000l. were made for those, there would remain 80,000,000l. of expenditure to carry the others into effect, in case they were agreed to-a sum the payment of which was calculated to produce an important effect on the money market—an effect which their Lordships might judge of, when he informed them that the largest loan ever raised during the war was 45,000,000l. in 1815. He had considered the subject, and with a view to suggesting to their Lordships a means of diminishing the evil which such a pressure would produce, he had prepared a series of Resolutions, which he would read to their Lordships. He gave the Government credit for their intention to prevent the evil of a The effect of these Resolutions, if agreed too great pressure on the money market, in to and acted upon, would be to remove the scheme which they proposed at an much of the evil of too great a pressure, earlier period of the Session; but that an evil which might be dreaded under the scheme had not been successful in diminish-present system. The noble Earl concluded ing the number of railway speculations to by moving the Resolutions. any extent; and he therefore felt satisfied that if their Lordships now entertained the same opinion with respect to this anticipated evil, which they did last March, they would be disposed to try another experiment with a view to avoiding the difficulty; and he would add, that if any of their Lordships proposed a more efficient means of avoiding the difficulty than he (Earl Fitzwilliam) was about to propose, he was not so wedded to his own plans as not to withdraw those Resolutions if a better experiment were suggested. There was no doubt that railway legislation ought to be regarded and dealt with as a whole system, which, although now in the infancy of its progress, would ultimately become the great means of communication throughout the country. A great misfortune was, that the Railway Bills had up to the present time been dealt with according to an old technicality as Private Bills, whereas it was highly desirable that the whole system of railway legislation should be placed in a connected form before them. In order to obviate the difficulties which it was feared might arise under the present system, he had prepared four Resolutions, which he would read to their Lordships :

The EARL of DALHOUSIE said, that however desirable it might be to narrow the limits of railway enterprise in general, which was the object of the noble Earl, and however ready he (the Earl of Dalhousie) might have been at the commencement of the Session to adopt some resolutions similar to those proposed by the noble Lord, he ventured to represent to the House that, under existing circumstances, and after what had passed both in this and the other House, they could not, consistently with common justice and fairness, adopt the recommendation of the noble Earl. He (Earl of Dalhousie) might be permitted to remind their Lordships of what had taken place in Parliament in the early portion of the Session, with reference to this subject. During the very first days of the Session the question of railway legislation was brought under the consideration of both Houses of Parliament. The vast number of railway schemes projected, and the great amount of capital required to carry them out, were pointed out; and a Committee was appointed to consider the best means of dealing with the subject, which reported to the House. Their Lordships then adopted certain Resolutions; and, with the concurrence of the other House, certain Railway Bills connected with Ireland, and other Bills, the progress of which had been suspended in the last Session, together with new projects connected with them, were to be

originated in their Lordships' House. It they would select and they would restrict. had been stated that no specific plan, with To one of the Resolutions submitted to reference to this subject, had been sub- them by the noble Earl opposite, he (the mitted by the Government to the Commit- Earl of Dalhousie) entertained very great tees of either House of Parliament. He objection, namely, to that which recom(Earl of Dalhousie) would not occupy their mended that their Lordships should not Lordships' time by discussing that ques- pass any Railway Bills which proposed to tion; but he might state that a plan was raise an amount exceeding 60,000,0007. submitted in extenso to their Lordships' He stated on the part of the Government Committee on the part of the Government, at the commencement of the Session, that and received their consideration. At that they were not prepared to say there should time the Committee of the other House be any direct restriction imposed upon railpresented their Report; in which, after way companies with regard to capital. He stating that there were 562 Railway Bills objected to this Resolution, on the ground standing for consideration, and adverting that if they determined they would not to the arrangements which might be made sanction any railway scheme for which it for their consideration, they proceeded was proposed to raise an amount exceed"Under these circumstances your Com-ing 60,000,000l., they tacitly admitted mittee have not deemed it advisable to re- that a capital of 60,000,000l. might fairly commend to this House to make any selec- and properly be raised for such a purpose. tion from, or to place any limitation on, He thought the House ought to be exthe number of railway schemes to be sub-tremely cautious in dealing with such a mitted to the consideration of Parliament question as this, and that an attempt to during the present Session." Upon this fix any positive limit of capital with regard declaration of opinion the inchoate railway to enterprises of this nature would be atcompanies had proceeded; their Bills had tended with great danger. There was one been for five months under consideration remedy in their Lordships' hands for the in the other House; they had expended evils to which the noble Earl opposite reimmense sums of money; and many of ferred, if they chose to exert it, in the strict them had attained the object they had in and firm exercise of the power of Commitview, and had received the sanction of tees of that House. If the Committees Parliament to their Bills. The other House of that House would do their duty fully, and of Parliament, which possessed the effec- in investigating these railway enterprises tive power in these matters, having dis-wonld not merely consider whether there tinctly declared the opinion he had quoted, and the railway companies having consequently gone on in the prosecution of their several projects, he thought, in common fairness and justice, their Lordships could not now turn round to the House of Com-lutely preventing the evils to which refermons and say, "True, you said there should be no selection or restriction, yet now we will select and we will restrict." Such a proceeding would really amount, he must say, though he did not wish to use strong terms, to a breach of faith on the part of their Lordships. But their Lordships had afforded to the projectors of these schemes another and another locus pænitentiæ. They had adopted certain sessional orders, which, though they were not intended to stop the progress of railway enterprise, afforded those who were anxious to abandon their projects an opportunity of doing so; and their Lordships had since passed a Bill, which was now in the other House of Parliament, with the same object. It was, therefore, impossible for them to turn round now upon the projectors of these schemes, and to say that

were any fatal objections to Bills, but whether it was necessary under the circumstances of the times that those Bill should be passed, they possessed the means of limiting and diminishing, if not of abso

ence had been made on this and former occasions. He trusted their Lordships would not adopt the Resolutions of the noble Earl.

LORD KINNAIRD concurred with the noble Earl (Earl Dalhousie), that if their Lordships were now to adopt any restrictions with regard to railway projects before Parliament, after what had passed in the Legislature, they would be chargeable with a breach of faith. If the noble Earl (Earl Fitzwilliam) had contented himself with proposing only the first of his four Resolutions, he (Lord Kinnaird) would have felt no objection to it, for it could not have injured any parties now before their Lordships. By limiting the amount of calls, and extending them over a longer space, a great relief would be given to the labour market. The Committee at present had no power of selection; for they felt that if

a railway was not opposed, they had scarcely | phrase, were only "occupying a position" the right to throw it out. A serious de- which they feared the enemy might attain. rangement would take place as soon as the It was unjust to give companies power great number of Bills now before the House over parties to take their land whether they had passed, and the calls began to be made would or not over a period so long as three on them. years; for during that time improvements were stopped, and everything was in a state of suspense. He entreated their Lordships to take some step or other to improve the present system of railway legislation.

The DUKE of RICHMOND thought the thanks of the House were due to his noble Friend (Earl Fitzwilliam) for calling attention to this subject; at the same time he agreed with his noble Friend the President of the Board of Trade, that it was impossible to carry the Resolutions now before the House in justice or fairness after they had suffered matters to go on so long. The House ought to frame resolutions for another Session. Their object was not to

LORD ASHBURTON said, that in the present position of affairs, he had so strong an objection to almost anything that could be proposed, that he did not see his way clearly enough to support the present Resolutions. If the amount required for the construction of the railways passed this Session, came at all near to that which had had been stated, there could be no doubt it would derange the monetary system, and produce confusion through the country. At the same time, the state of the case ought not to be exaggerated. If the railways passed this Session required a capital of 60,000,000l., it should be remembered that the calls were usually spread over a period of three years, and that only one-stop the construction of proper railways, third of that amount would be required during the present year. He did not lose sight of the fact that calls would also be made during the present year on behalf of railways which were in the second or third year of their construction; but he could not see in what manner Parliament could again interfere.

The DUKE of WELLINGTON said, that the first Resolution of the noble Lord, to stop the Bills until they reached a certain stage, would have the effect of collecting the Bills in one mass, and passing them at nearly the some time. It would thus create the very inconvenience which the noble Lord wished to avoid. He should like to see the instructions given to the Committee (for he supposed it would be necessary to give them instructions) before he was called upon to judge of the noble Lord's proposition. With respect to the first Resolution, he would again submit to their Lordships that it would collect all the Bills into one mass, and their Lordships would be called upon to pass them at the same mo

but to prevent Bills being obtained for branches that were never intended to be made, but which were brought forward to defeat railways that would be more useful to the public. He had been on a Committee where the company sought for powers to take land extending over a period of five years; the Committee, however, had given them only eighteen months. Companies said that the reason why they required so long a term was, that they found it so difficult to deal with landowners. He thought the House ought to limit the power which companies now possessed of borrowing money; that was the way to check some of those reckless schemes. At the present moment it was impossible to attend to the Standing Orders without feeling that they required great revision, and that they ought to be made more clear and decisive. An instance of this had occurred to-day in the operations of what was called Lord Wharncliffe's clause. Their Lordships should also, if possible, come to an arrangement with the House of Commons, so that when Bills had passed LORD MONTEAGLE said, it was not the Standing Orders Committee of the decent that the House should not take other House, they might be immediately some pains to put railway legislation on a brought before the Standing Orders Comproper footing. Almost all the Bills grant-mittee of their Lordships' House. The ed a compulsory power of dealing with latter Committee, after a company had landed property; and railway companies, spent 8,000l. or 10,000., did not like to during the period of three years allowed throw out their Bill upon some technicality. them, took the land or not, just as suited He hoped the present Session would not the exigencies of the moment. During be allowed to pass over without some arthis time the owners of land were kept in rangement being made for a future Scssuspense, while the companies, in military sion; but until railway companies were

ment.

compelled to conform strictly to the Standing Orders, things would never be put wholly right.

LORD REDESDALE agreed with the noble Duke that some improvement ought to be made in the Standing Orders. Their Lordships ought to insist that a line should be laid down so accurately that the engineers might at once proceed to work upon it, instead of sending in plans so imperfectly prepared that they wanted more time to revise them. He agreed also in the opinion that railway companies ought not to be allowed to borrow any money, and that all their capital should be raised by shares. He thought that some limit upon speculation was desirable; but their Lordships could not interfere again now. There was a great deal of leniency towards companies on the part of the Committees to whom they were referred. The duty of the Committee was to say whether the line before them was the best that could be laid down; and they had a right to call for evidence upon this point. In other countries the selection of the best lines was made by the Government. To say that because parties had spent a great deal of money, their Bill ought to pass, was to offer a temptation to getting up crude schemes. He trusted that Committees would inquire strictly into the merits of every Bill before them.

Bangor, but providing for the Immediate Appointment of a Bishop to the newly erected See of Manchester.— By Mr. Hawes, from Ratepayers of the Parish of Saint Mary, Lambeth, in Vestry assembled, against the Highways Bill.-By Mr. Fuller, from Ratepayers of the Parish of Froxfield, and from Elected Guardians of the Foor Law Union of Newhaven, for Repeal or Alteration of the Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act.-By Mr. Bankes, from Bridport, for Inquiry into the Bridport Election.-By Sir John Hanmer, from Kingston-upon-Hull, for Alteration of Law of Rating and Settlement.-By Mr. Marjoribanks, from Watford, for Rating Owners in lieu of Occupiers of Small Tenements.— By Sir Robert Peel, from Trustees of the British Museum, for Aid.-By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Liverpool, against the Deodands Abolition Bill.-By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Dublin, against the Abolition of Guilds.-By several hon. Members, from various places, against the Poor Removal Bill.

POST OFFICE.

MR. G. BERKELEY wished to put a question to the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary respecting the puritanical attempt now making in different parts of the country to close the Post Offices on Sunday. The question he wished to put was, whether it was in the power of the Postmaster General to close the Post Office on Sunday, and prevent the delivery of letters on private solicitation?

SIR J. GRAHAM said, that the hon. Member had been obliging enough in the course of that morning to give him notice of the question he was to put on this subject. He had had no opportunity of consulting the Postmaster General since the receipt of the hon. Member's note, but he conEarl FITZWILLIAM replied. He con- ceived it was a question of general law curred in thinking that Committees ought which he might answer without consulting to be more strict, for at present their the Postmaster General. He believed Lordships took every Bill into considera- that the law as it now stood was, that the tion, with reference to its own peculiar Postmaster General had power to reguclaims to being passed, without regard to late the hours of delivery on Sunday at the effect it might produce on the country the different Post Offices. In the metrogenerally, in consequence of so much capi-polis, as the House was aware, the boxes tal being employed in one branch of speculation. He would not, however, press the Resolutions.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned.

HOUSE

MINUTES.]

OF COMMONS,
Friday, June 5, 1846.

PUBLIC BILLS.-10. Waste Lands (Ireland);
Steam Navigation; Wreck and Salvage.
2o. County Works Presentments (Ireland) Amendment.
Reported. Ropemakers.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By several hon. Members, from

various places, complaining of the Refusal of Proprietors
of Land to grant Sites in suitable places, or on any Terms,

for the Erection of Churches for the Free Church in

Scotland. By Mr. Hawes, from Inhabitants of Sheerness, for the Adoption of Measures for promoting the Due Observance of the Lord's Day.-By Lord C. Manners,

from Minister, Churchwardens, and Parishioners of Whit

wick, against the Union of the Sees of St. Asaph and

were open for the receipt of letters, but there was no delivery. In country towns, however, he believed that a delivery did take place at certain hours, though there was no attendance at the office during the time of divine service. He (Sir J. Graham) was not aware there was any intention to change either the law or the practice.

POOR LAW UNION OF CARRICK-
MACROSS.

COLONEL RAWDON wished to know from the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland whether any information had been received by the Government respecting alleged misconduct on the part of the officers and others connected with the Poor Law Union of Carrickmacross-whether inquiry

had been made into the circumstances by Government or by the Poor Law Commissioners; if so, the date of such inquiry, and the date when the complaints of the ratepayers and their demands for investigation were received by the Poor Law Commissioners; if any report had been made upon the subject; and if the Government would consent to its production, and to the evidence taken at the investigation, together with copies of the correspondence which led to, and which related to, such investigation?

The EARL of LINCOLN replied, that the Government had received information from the Poor Law Commissioners of the circumstances to which the hon. Member referred-that inquiry had been made into the circumstances, not by the Government, but by the Poor Law Commissioners-that Mr. Symons, the Assistant Poor Law Commissioner, had been instructed to make the inquiry on the 9th of May last-that he proceeded to make the inquiry on the 19th, and reported on the 25th-that the Poor Law Commissioners had received the complaint of the ratepayers on the 1st of April-that some correspondence took place between them and the Poor Law Commissioners in the interval between that and the 16th or 17th-that on the 18th the Commissioners referred the case to an eminent counsel for his opinion, and this opinion they did not receive till the 9th of May, when they immediately ordered an inquiry. He (Lord Lincoln) had no objection to produce, not only the report and evidence, but the whole correspondence, which should all be laid on the Table as soon as possible.

POOR REMOVAL BILL.

SIR J. GRAHAM moved the Order of the Day for Committee on the Poor Removal Bill.

MR. J. E. DENISON rose to move an Instruction to the Committee to make provision for the establishment of union settlements; and was proceeding to state his reasons for asking the consent of the House to the proposition, when

visions of the Bill. The Bill was entitled "A Bill to consolidate and amend the Laws relating to the Removal of the Poor." It proposed to repeal certain former Acts relating to the removal of the poor; and by the sixth Clause it was proposed to be enacted that every person who had become chargeable to any parish or union in which he was not settled should be liable to be removed therefrom to any parish in which he was settled; so that there would be ample opportunity for discussing the point the hon. Member for Malton had in view. If it was necessary to move an instruction to the Committee on the point the hon. Member was going to urge, they would never have a single Bill without an instruction being moved from that day forward.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Finsbury has quite correctly stated the practice of the House, that it is not competent for a Member to move an instruction to a Committee when it is competent for the Committee itself to entertain his Motion; but I am of opinion that, in the present case, it is necessary for the hon. Member for Malton to move his instruction in order to enable the Committee to entertain the subject.

MR. BANKES would not venture to offer any observation upon the point which had just been raised after what had fallen from the Chair; but, in another respect, he ventured to object to the hon. Member for Malton having precedence on the present occasion. It would be in the recollection of the House that it was distinctly understood, when they allowed the Bill to be read a second time without discussion, that at the present stage of the Bill there should be a discussion on the whole principle of the Bill; and, undoubtedly, if they allowed the present opportunity to pass, another might not arise. If the hon. Member for Malton succeeded in his Motion, the opportunity of discussing the principle might be lost. Waving, therefore, for a moment, the point raised by the hon. Member for Finsbury, he submitted whether he ought not to have, on the ground he had already stated, precedence over the hon. Member for Malton. His right hon. Friend the Home Secretary would, he was sure, bear him out, that when they last parted, it was distinctly understood that an opportunity was to be afforded for making observations on the principle of the Bill. It was upon that understanding that the Bill had been allowed to

MR. T. DUNCOMBE rose to order. He had always understood that it was a rule of the House, that it was not competent for any Member to move an instruction to a Committee when the object in view could be gained in Committee, which he thought was the case in this instance. The question of the hon. Member could be raised in Committee, both as to the title and pro-reach its present stage.