nor less than shifting the burden of respon- | one of whom was overheard to say as he sibility from the shoulders of Her Ma- left the office, "I wonder how the devil jesty's responsible advisers to those of those two gentlemen could know so much other and inferior persons, who were alto- about salt pork?" The Tariff certainly gether irresponsible. The measures brought did that trade no harm. So with the boot in by the Government had been proposed and shoe trade: the experiment was said upon their own responsibility, after a long to be a dangerous one; but the whole quanand anxious investigation, and much in- tity of boots that came in last year was quiry. They pressed them forward upon 14,000 pairs-a quantity that practically their own responsibility, and upon their made no difference: there was not less own responsibility they were now offered leather used here in the manufacture. to their Lordships' consideration. Then there was the milling interest: they wanted the duty on flour increased; but, if they were ruined, it must have been in years when there was little or no flour imported at all. Therefore, his (the Earl of Ripon's) experience had led him to receive with great doubt all these prophecies of ruin. If all such prophecies made since he had been in office had been fulfilled, there would not be a single branch of national industry that would not have been ruined. EARL STANHOPE only wished to know whether Her Majesty's Government had taken the opinion of any impartial, intelligent, and well-informed persons as to these measures? The late Lord Liverpool was in the habit during the war of consulting every day an eminent capitalist. But it was in vain to argue about this Bill any more than the Corn Bill, such a strange conversion of opinion had taken place on both sides of the House. Their Lordships must take the consequences. There would be a general reaction of public opinion; the principle of free trade would become odious even among the manufacturers; and they would be amongst the first to solicit Parliament to restore that system of pro-sures with the question of finance-in what tection under which the country had so long flourished, and had acquired such prosperity. LORD MONTEAGLE thought the House had a right to hear something from the Government upon a subject to which the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) had alluded-the connexion of the present mea condition they expected the finances of the country to be placed when their measures should be carried? Were they prepared to say that after carrying those measures, they anticipated the possibility of the removal of the property tax? In diminish The EARL of RIPON must say, that judging from experience, if eminent merchants had been consulted on this occasion, the result would have been but a collec-ing to such an extent the indirect taxation tion of contradictory opinions. When the of the country, was not Parliament making Tariff of 1842 was framed, he and the Vice it a matter of inevitable necessity that that President of the Board of Trade were oc- heavy burden, for the first time imposed in cupied for many weeks in hearing the re- a period of peace-imposed under an exipresentations of parties upon various points; gency of circumstances, and somewhat in and some of the results in those instances consideration of existing difficulties, and for would show that the noble Earl (Earl a definite period, could not be removed at Stanhope) might well doubt the accuracy the time specified? He was not saying of his views. Among those who were ex- that it might not be wise and just to conpecting to be ruined were the glovers of tinue it; but let the fact be understood; let Worcester and Yeovil; and he (the Earl it be known that in gaining a great comof Ripon) in vain told the deputation from mercial good, they were entailing financial that body, that they were chiefly injured difficulties upon themselves. There was by the then high duty, which made it im- but a surplus of 70,000l., and that was possible to prevent smuggling, the truth shown only by altering the mode of taking being that the only way to beat the smug- the Estimates, and estimating the expendigler was to make the trade unprofitable ture in some cases, not for the whole of to him; however, the duty was lowered,. the year, but for a portion only. The inand in two or three months one of creased consumption had been something that very party came to him and stated of an equivalent for the revenue sacrificed that he had been over to France, and found in the reduction of duties: but only a quack upon thorough inquiry that they had been could connect this large increase of conquite wrong. Then there were the per-sumption exclusively with that reduction; sons concerned in the Irish provision trade, it was to be traced to the enormous actiVOL. LXXXVII. 2 D Third Series} facturers in some articles; but when the capital and skill of the British manufacturers came into operation with respect to the finer goods, they might then beat America in every country in the world, and in her own markets likewise, if she only opened her ports. Under these circumstances, he (Lord Monteagle) thought it was most extraordinary that the evidence of these gentlemen should be appealed to as establishing that the English manufacturer would be under a free system of trade beaten by the foreign manufacturer. He was ready to admit that there were some faults in this Tariff some very absurd discriminations kept up between colonial trade and foreign trade; but all the advances made in the direction of freedom of commerce, only proved the necessity of proceeding onward stea vity in trade; the enormous amount of wages paid to the labouring classes; and unless we could rely upon that as a continuing cause, it was clear that, with the present surplus, we could not expect an easy state of the finances. In short, with the reductions now making, there seemed no escape from a continuance of the property tax. He confessed that he was anxious to see these principles of free trade carried out as rapidly and as fully as circumstances would permit; and he grieved that his noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley), with his great ability and authority, had put himself at the head of the opposite party. The position taken by his noble Friend might weaken his own power, but it could not impede the course of commercial freedom. His noble Friend had said, that repealing the duties on raw materials, whilst a duty on the importation of the ma-dily and equally. When they repealed nufactured produce was maintained, in- the duty on the export of machinery, in volved the principle of protection. That respect to which this country was prewas a great fallacy. Their Lordships were eminent, and when by so doing they exbound to repeal the duty on the raw mate- posed the British manufacturers to a more rial; because, if a duty was taken on the active competition on the part of their raw material, a duty was then laid on in foreign rivals, such a step involved in its the first instance, which became aggra- consequences everything else that had been vated as the article passed through all done in the way of relaxation of duties. its various stages of manufacture; and the He concurred in what had fallen from the amount received by the Exchequer fell noble Earl (Earl Dalhousie) as to the iminfinitely below the amount paid by the possibility of checking and preventing public. That was a reason for a repeal of smuggling, whatever amount of vigilance the duty on the raw material, wholly sepa- might be used, so long as they held out rate and distinct from any consideration of to the smuggler the inducement of high protection; and a repeal of the duty on the duties. When, with respect to spirits, raw material was besides only a matter of for instance, they imposed a duty of 22s. justice to our manufacturers, who exported a gallon on an article not worth much more the article in a manufactured state. The than 3s. a gallon, could they hope to premanufacturers of this country required no vent smuggling? It was said, that by this protection, and demanded none. His no- Tariff they were asked to reduce the duties ble Friend had, on a former occasion ad- on luxuries, such as carriages, &c. But verted to the evidence of Messrs. Ashworth it was not a fair and just representation of and Greg, who he observed had told a the case to state the reduction of the duty Committee that they would be exposed to as a mere benefit to the consumer, for the competition of America. That was whom the foreign article was imported. true; but what did Mr. Ashworth add? How was that article paid for? By British He said that he was not afraid of the Ame- labour, which had been employed on every ricans in any market of the world; that bale of goods and on every portion of there was nothing in the position or skill British manufactures sent out of the counof British manufacturers to make them try to pay for the foreign article. Any atafraid of any competition; the British ma-tempt to talk of these luxuries of the rich nufacturer had the advantage of railways, canals, coal, iron, skill, industry, and of every element necessary to make cheap goods, and he might rather challenge competition than otherwise. The evidence of Mr. Greg was equally conclusive: he said that America, from her water power, might upon her own soil beat the British manu as contradistinguished from the labour of the poor, was just one of those fallacies which might answer very well in poetry, or provoke a cheer when sympathy was ap pealed to; but which, when the real material interests of mankind were gravely and seriously considered, must go for nothing. It was by labour that those luxu ries were purchased, and that labour pro- | crease under the old Tariff. He took from cured wages for our countrymen. the Parliamentary returns the following facts:-Our exports were, on an average of the five years preceding 1836, 203,000,000; 1841, 250,000,000; 1846, 268,000,000. So that the increase of five years, under the old Tariff, was 47,000,000; under the new, only 18,000,000. Again, the duties imposed by the Tariff of 1842, averaged 20 per cent on manufactures; now 10 per cent was the average proposed, although the American Secretary of State had recommended 20 per cent, as calculated to produce the greatest amount of revenue. The MARQUESS of SALISBURY said, that the noble President of the Board of Trade had stated certain things as the result of the Tariff of 1842, which appeared to him the (the Marquess of Salisbury) problematical. He could state, that when the Tariff was altered in 1842, American provisions were used by several of the shipowners of Liverpool for provisioning their ships. By way of experiment, they were used for short voyages; but it was found they did not keep, and the crews returned in a wretched state for want of provisions. LORD ASHBURTON said, that the What did the shipowners then do? They measure now before the House would cause sent out Irish curers to America, and the so great a reduction in the revenue, that American provisions were now cured in an income tax, which ought to have been the same manner as Irish provisions, and reserved for a period of war, would be renwere very generally adopted for ships; dered indispensable in this country during and, until Irish provisions could be ob- a time of peace. He believed though he tained at as cheap a rate as American, hoped he might be mistaken-that the there could be no doubt the latter would theory of perpetual and unwearied proscontinue to be used. The milling trade perity of the country, upon which so much in the neighbourhood of London had also reliance had been placed, was entirely falbeen entirely destroyed by the operation lacious. He did not concur in the broad of the Tariff. He thought there could be and general principle-that discovery which no doubt, that if they diminished the re- seemed to have been made in the prevenue derived from duties, they must re-sent generation-that free-trade principles sort to direct taxation; but did their Lord- ought to be indiscriminately applied. He ships believe that, at a time like the pre-considered that they might be fatal to the sent, considering also the war which would be commenced throughout the country against a system of direct taxation, they could afford to relinquish the revenue accruing from protective duties? Those duties, in his opinion, had not only been most effectual in producing a good revenue, but also in affording encouragement and protection to British industry. He conceived that the measures of Her Majesty's Government were tending very materially to reduce the revenue of the country, and would be injurious to its best interests; and on these grounds he objected to the present Bill. LORD COLCHESTER said, it had been stated that the diminution of revenue occasioned by the reductions of duty proposed by the Government would be made up by the increased importation and consumption of those articles on which the duty was to be reduced. He had not objected to the Tariff of 1842; but the experiment then tried had not been attended with very favourable results with regard to the increased importations anticipated from a reduction of duties. It was true that there had been an increase, but that increase had not been at all in proportion to the in industry of this country, and that our po- House in Committee accordingly. LORD STANLEY said: I will not repeat what I have so recently stated on this subject, but I shall content myself with stating that this proposed reduction of the duties on foreign timber appears to me to be absolutely throwing away a consider The EARL of DALHOUSIE said, he had already admitted the loss to the revenue; but the consumer had received the benefit of it. The EARL of GALLOWAY said, the reduction of duty would be a great boon to the agricultural interest. On Question, that the Clause stand able portion of revenue. The duties were reduced within the last three years from 55s. to 25s. per load; and colonial timber was reduced at the same time to a mere nominal amount, for the purpose, as it was avowedly declared in 1842, of keeping up some relation between foreign and colonial timber. The consequence was, that while the consumption of colonial timber has increased in a very slight degree, that of foreign timber has increased in a very great degree from 700,000 loads to 1,700,000 loads in last year; and now the House is asked in the present state of the revenue to sacrifice, upon the article of foreign timber, 400,000l. out of the mil-treated-after calling in proxies to vote lion which is now brought in. He thought that no serious injury would be done to any one, but great good to the nation, and therefore he would move that this clause be omitted. The DUKE of RICHMOND rose and said: My Lords, after what has occurred this evening-after the manner in which the petition of the silk weavers has been on that important question-I cannot think of proceeding with a clause to-night which so materially involves the welfare of the silk trade. I will not be a party to proceeding further with this clause to-night. I do not think I am very unreasonable in asking your Lordships to postpone the had time to prepare the case which I could wish to lay before your Lordships this evening. The EARL of DALHOUSIE said, he had no objection whatever to the postponement of the clause. The Committee then went through the The EARL of DALHOUSIE said, the noble Lord was under a misapprehension as to the increased import of foreign tim-discussion upon this clause. I have not ber as compared with Canada timber. If he would look to the Papers on the Table, he would find that of hewn timber there was imported from the Baltic in 1841, 136,000 loads; in 1842, 108,000 loads; and in 1845, 282,000 loads. Of deals, in 1843, 229,000 loads; and in 1845, 342,000 loads. On the other hand, a reference to the accounts of the imports of colonial timber would show that in 1841 the import was 619,000 loads; in 1842, 418,000 loads; and in 1845, 797,000 loads. Of deals there were imported, in 1842, 170,000 loads; and in 1845, 498,000 loads. He could not, therefore, understand how the noble Lord could say that there had not been relatively an increase in the import of colonial timber. With PETITIONS PRESENTED. By several hon. Members, from regard to the motives which had induced Her Majesty's Government to propose this reduction of duty, he would not fatigue their Lordships by going into the arguments he had before urged. It was sufficiently shown that the increased import of foreign timber did not prevent the increased import of colonial timber; and as regarded the revenue, all experience in similar cases led to the belief that, notwithstanding the reductions, the increased consumption would ultimately produce at least as much revenue as was received before the change. EARL STANHOPE observed that the noble Earl had said nothing of the loss of 600,0001. of revenue occasioned by the reduction of these duties, HOUSE OF COMMONS, MINUTES.] PUBLIC BILLS. 1o. Charitable Trusts; Baths and Washhouses; Western Australia; Ordnance Survey. 3o and passed. County Works Presentments (Ireland) Amendment. various places, praying the House to pass a Bill for Compensating Proprietors of Land for Sites for Free Churches (Scotland), and for securing Accommodation to the Congregations. By several hon. Members, from a number of places, for the Better Observance of, and for the Prevention of the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on the Sabbath.-By Mr. Stanley, from Clergy of Twrcelyn, in the County of Anglesea, against the Union of the Sees of Saint Asaph and Bangor, but providing for the Immediate Appointment of a Bishop to the Newly Erected See of Manchester.-By Sir William Clay, from Manufacturers of Tobacco and Snuff in the Port of London, for Reduction of Duty on Tobacco. From Inhabitants of the Parish of All Saints, Wandsworth, in the County of Surrey, for Revision and Alteration of the Laws relating to Jurors.-By Mr. Richard Hodgson, from Passengers travelling between Birmingham and Bristol by Railway on the 10th, 11th, and 12th Days of June, and from Persons engaged in the Trade of Public Carriers, for carrying out the Recommendation of Her Majesty's Commissioners, who have lately reported on the Gauge Question, and establish, at the earliest possible Period, a National Uniformity of Gauge. By Viscount Emlyn, from Commissioners of Supply of the County of Nairn, for the Adoption of Registration of Births, &c. in Scot land. By several hon. Members, from various places, against the Abolition of existing Religious Tests in the Universities of Scotland. NEW ZEALAND. MR. C. BULLER rose to put a question to the First Lord of the Treasury, of which he had given notice on Friday. Some time since the right hon. Baronet had been pleased to say that he would give ample notice of the intentions of Government with respect to New Zealand; and he would now perhaps fully acquit him (Mr. C. Buller) of exceeding the limits of his duty when he asked whether it was the intention of Ministers, in the present Session, to bring forward any measure for the government of New Zealand? clauses by which all future deans were compelled to reside on their deaneries for eight months in the year at the very least; and while they are thus fixed to their deanaries, heads of colleges and professors are sought to be attached to their several duties and universities, by being relieved from those outlying canonries, as of Worcester and others, which were attached to them as part of their salaries, having canonries of Ely or Christ Church, which are part and parcel of the two universities, substituted for them. And, in the same spirit, heads of colleges were relieved from the charge of certain livings which were attached to them, receiving at the same time, compensation; and likewise several deans were, in the same anti-pluralist spirit, relieved from livings that had been attached to them. I ask the right hon. Baronet, whether he has considered that this process was specially applied to the two pieces of preferment concerning which I am inquir SIR R. PEEL replied, that since the subject had been mentioned formerly, his right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Colonies had given a good deal of consideration to the subject. His difficulty in giving a positive answer was now materially diminished by the contents of the re-ing, namely, that the headship of Magdacent accounts from New Zealand. On the last occasion he had not been able to give any pledge, because the British troops were then in chase of the enemy; but now there was good reason to hope that the authority of the British Crown had been established. Under these altered circumstances, he had no hesitation in stating his opinion that it would be highly desirable, in the course of the present Session, to bring forward a legislative measure for the government of New Zealand. As to the particular character of the measure, he abstained from giving any opinion. Whether it should be an enacting or an enabling measure, he would not say; but it was the intention of Ministers to introduce some legislative measure before the expiration of the Ses sion. THE DEAN OF WINDSOR. MR. RICH: I wish to ask the right hon. Baronet at the head of Her Majesty's Government whether, when he made a recent appointment to the deanery of Windsor, considering the various Acts which within the last ten years have been passed for the repression of non-residence and pluralities amongst the clergy, and more especially considering the Act of the 3rd and 4th of Victoria, for carrying into effect the Report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners respecting deans and deaneries, as well as heads of colleges and professors in our universities-I ask the right hon. Baronet whether he has considered those lene College was relieved from the care of souls of the living of Ellington; that by an Order in Council the advowson of it was directed to be sold, the proceeds duly invested, and the interest paid from time to time to the master of Magdalene for the time being, manifestly thereby intimating that the master should have more time and opportunity to devote to his college duties; and the deanery of Windsor was in like manner relieved from the cure of souls, thereby implying that the dean should attend to his duties as dean, and that each of these dignitaries should devote the whole of his attention to his high office. To fulfil the terms of his appointments, Dr. Grenville ought to reside six months of the year at his college, and to be in residence at the deanery in Windsor for eight months. I should be glad to know from the right hon. Baronet by what process the hon. and very rev. gentleman is to compress fourteen months' residence into one year? I must also ask whether either the college of which he is the master, or the Church itself, must not suffer by this arrangement? While fully subscribing to the merits of the hon. and very rev. gentleman, I wish it to be understood that my remarks are directed against the system. SIR R. PEEL said, that the hon. Gentleman had asked him a question with by far the most complicated preamble, and, although it was contained in one sentence, by far the longest sentence he had ever heard. He did not think it at all desirable |