Mr. HARDEY. All income beyond the 3-mile limit in the way of rentals, royalties, lease bonuses, are dedicated by constitutional amendment to the retirement of the State debt.

Mr. WOODWARD. If the 30 millions in revenue now received from the tideland oil for debt retirement is lost, does it follow that that tax would have to be laid upon the citizens of Louisiana by some other means?

Mr. HARDEY. Not that much money has been dedicated to that purpose. The constitutional amendment was voted only in the fall of 1946. Since that time only about $9,000,000 has accrued to the State beyond the 3-mile limit in the form of lease bonuses to apply to this special fund. We anticipate that it will grow from month to month and year to year. My personal estimate is, if we were undisturbed in our ownership, we might eventually get enough income from properties over the cost to retire the entire State debt over a period of

years.

Mr. WOODWARD. I assume, of course, that your entire leasing program and the laws of your legislature have been enacted upon the theory that the State of Louisiana owned and had control of the submerged tidelands below the low-water mark.

Mr. HARDEY. That is right. The deliberations of our legislature take account of our retaining ownership, of course, and it has been projected ahead over a period of many years in working out the State's finances.

have

Mr. WOODWARD. Along the coast line of Louisiana, Major, you a great many inland bays and harbors. What method do you adopt now to determine what is inland waters and what is tidelands in the open sea?

Mr. HARDEY. That has never been determined. We don't know what the California decision might do, whether it will take our bays. We have outlying islands lying along the coast, like Marsh Island, and we don't know whether the low-water mark will come within those islands or go beyond those islands.

Mr. WOODWARD. That is to say, whether the 3-mile limit or the 30mile limit would start outside those islands or from the mainland? Mr. HARDEY. That is right.

Senator DONNELL. Which do you mean?

Mr. HARDEY. We don't know where it would begin or stop.
Senator DONNELL. The 30-mile limit?

Mr. HARDEY. Or the 3-mile limit, or a mean low tide. We don't know where the shore line is. We have a very jagged shore line. There are a lot of bays and inlets. We have a lot of oil fields in those bays inside of those islands stretched along that coast. We might lose oil fields that have been producing for years. I don't know.

I flew over it in an airplane and just looked over that jagged line and tried to draw a line to show where the boundaries might be under this California decision. It just poses an awfully big problem. I don't know who could determine it. I think it would result in an awful lot of litigation in the courts.

Mr. WOODWARD. Is the land on these islands lying offshore Louisiana, which you mentioned, owned individually? Has that been patented or sold to individual owners?

Mr. HARDEY. Some of them are owned individually. Some of the islands disappear and bob up somewhere else sometimes. We have some litigation with landowners about ownership of land bodies. Land ordinarily is owned by individuals, and of course the water bottoms are owned by the State.

Mr. WOODWARD. Are any of these islands of such permanent character that they are populated by residents?

Mr. HARDEY. Oh, yes; some of them are. For instance, Marsh Island, lying off the coast of the parish, which I mentioned in my paper this morning, has 75,000 acres in it. It is a wildlife preserve. It is populated only by game wardens who protect the wildlife on the island. There is no commercial work of any kind going on. We have a good many of those islands lying off the coast that are inhabited by fishermen and shrimpers and people like that.

Mr. WOODWARD. Who live there?

Mr. HARDEY. Yes.

Mr. WOODWARD. Do they carry on any agricultural pursuits on these islands?

Mr. HARDEY. There is not much opportunity for agricultural work. It is swampy and marshy as a rule on most of the islands offshore. Mr. WOODWARD. Does the State of Louisiana collect taxes from these residents?

Mr. HARDEY. I am sure they do.

Mr. WOODWARD. They are taxpayers?

Mr. HARDEY. Yes.

Mr. WOODWARD. Do they have the right of vote in the State of Louisiana?

Mr. HARDEY. Oh, yes, they vote.

Mr. WOODWARD. The State exercises police jurisdiction?

Mr. HARDEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOODWARD. How far from shore are these islands that you describe?

Mr. HARDEY. It varies quite a bit. Chandelier Island, for instance, along the Chandelier sound, is probably 40 to 50 miles off the regular shore line. Marsh Island is off an average through those bays of about 20 miles offshore. We just cannot figure where the shore line might be determined under this California decision. We are hoping if Federal title prevails, we will at least keep the bays, but we are not sure of that.

Senator DONNELL. Colonel, the fact that the decision in United States of America v. California has been made, received wide publicity in the State of Louisiana shortly after the decision was rendered by the Supreme Court of the United States on June 23, 1947, did it not? Mr. HARDEY. I am sure it had the regular press publicity, Senator. Senator DONNELL. Were you the chairman of the mineral board at that time?

Mr. HARDEY. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Did you hear about that decision?

Mr. HARDEY. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Do you know whether the Governor of the State heard about it?

Mr. HARDEY. Surely he did.

Senator DONNELL. It was discussed, as a matter of fact, by the members of your board, both you and the Governor and the other members, was it not?

Mr. HARDEY. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. And it was discussed quite promptly after the issuance of the opinion, was it not?

Mr. HARDEY. It probably was discussed at the next meeting of our board, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. How often does the board meet?

Mr. HARDEY. Irregularly; sometimes once a month and sometimes every 2 months.

Senator DONNELL. Do you remember how soon it was after June 23. 1947. that your board met?

Mr. HARDEY. We probably went for summer vacation about that time. Senator. I cannot tell you the date of the following meeting. Senator DONNELL. At any rate, it was within the next month or two that you think the California decision was discussed within a meeting of your State mineral board?

Mr. HARDEY. Probably within 2 months.

Senator DONNELL. You gentlemen realized, I take it, that there might be some possible application of that case to Louisiana. Without conceding whether you thought there should be, you realized the contention might be made that that case applied to Louisiana, did you not?

Mr. HARDEY. Our anticipation was that in time probably the Department of Justice would file suit in the Louisiana case to determine the title. That is what we anticipated. We did not discuss too much the application of the California case. No man on the board is a lawyer, and we just anticipated that in due course they would try to take ours away from us, too.

Senator DONNELL. Was the Attorney General consulted by your board for his opinion as to whether that case applied to Louisiana? Mr. HARDEY. I am sure he was some time after that, Senator. Senator DONNELL. Are you able to tell us approximately how much has come into the State since that date, June 23, 1947, by way of revenue, either lease bonuses, rentals, royalties, or other types of revenue, from lands in this marginal belt seaward from the low-water mark? Mr. HARDEY. It would have to be an estimate and an approxima tion. I think probably Miss Grace, the register of the land office, who receives those funds and who will be before this committee a little later, probably could give you a better answer.

Senator DONNELL. It amounted to millions of dollars, however, did it not?

Mr. HARDEY. Probably as much as $4,000,000. It would be purely an approximation.

Senator DONNELL. You think she can give us accurately the figures? Mr. HARDEY. I am sure she could get them.

Senator DONNELL. Major Hardey, has this fund that has been derived from the income from the marginal belt land been set up in any special fund so if the courts shall adjudicate that the United States Government is entitled to it, it will be intact there, held there as a trust fund to be paid over to the Government?

Mr. HARDEY. It is dedicated and is held as a trust fund, but it is held as a trust fund to retire State debt in Louisiana, not to be turned over to anybody else.

Senator DONNELL. So there has been no fund set up to which the United States might have recourse in the event the Government should prevail in the ultimate litigation over these marginal belts?

Mr. HARDEY. No, sir. I am sure a lot of it has been spent already. Senator DONNELL. You are sure a lot of it has been spent already? I thought you said earlier in your testimony this morning that in your opinion the United States will not recover this money by any voluntary payment by the State of Louisiana; that it will be necessary for litigation to ensue in order that the Federal Government may get that amount into its Treasury from the State. Is that right?

Mr. HARDEY. We hope they will be magnanimous enough not to get the stuff that came in back there. They ought to be satisfied with what will come in in the future. I do not know how they would get it when we have spent part of it for school teachers' salaries and other things already.

Senator DONNELL. Considerable of this money that came in after June 23, 1947, has been spent for teachers' salaries and other expenditures of the State?

Mr. HARDEY. It has gone into our general fund and probably has been appropriated out. We had a special session of our legislature last year and we raised teachers' salaries, and I imagine some of it went into that.

Senator DONNELL. You referred to the 27 nautical miles which you state is approximately 30 United States miles, or English miles. Mr. HARDEY. Approximately, yes.

Senator DONNELL. Do you know how that figure of 27 nautical miles was arrived at? Why would the State not claim 54 miles instead of 27 miles?

Mr. HARDEY. My judgment would be, Senator, that that was the practical limit to which we would be able to supervise in our shrimping and fishing industry. Facetiously, the papers said it was as far as the modern artillery gun could shoot, and we were supposed to have everything we could protect under the Act of Admission to the Union. I am not a lawyer and don't know the basis for that.

I was not in the legislature in 1938 when this act was passed, so I can't give you the underlying reasons for that distance out.

Senator DONNELL. I asked you a little while ago the approximate amount of revenue that has come in from these marginal belt lands since June 23, 1947, and you were kind enough to tell me that Miss Grace, you think, can give me that information a little later on.

I want to ask you at this point, Can you tell us yourself at this time approximately the amount of revenues that have come into the State of Louisiana from any source-rentals, bonuses, royalties, or other sources-from the lands under this marginal belt out into the ocean 27 miles from low-water mark, how much has come in since September 28, 1945, approximately? Do you know?

Mr. HARDEY. Approximately $18,000,000.

Senator DONNELL. Approximately $18,000,000. Has that likewise gone into the general funds of the State?

Mr. HARDEY. Part of it has.

Senator DONNELL. What part of it has gone into the general funds of the State?

Mr. HARDEY. In November 1946, a constitutional amendment was voted by the people of Louisiana dedicating the revenue beyond the 3-mile limit to go into a special fund for the retirement of the State debt. Revenues within the 3-mile limit went into the general fund. That part before November 1946, of course, went into the general fund, also. I cannot give you the break-down on that, Senator, because I don't know.

Senator DONNELL. Will Miss Grace be prepared to give us that information?

Mr. HARDEY. I am not sure that she will, but the information can be gotten, I am sure.

Senator DONNELL. I am wondering if you would be kind enough at least to suggest that the question has been asked so that Miss Grace may have that information for us?

Mr. HARDEY. I will be glad to do that.

Senator DONNELL. As I understand it, at any rate, none of the $18,000,000 that has come into the State of Louisiana since September 28, 1945, from these sources, namely, the rentals, royalties, lease bonuses or other form of revenue derived from these marginal subwater lands, has gone into any trust fund to be set up to abide the question of whether or not the United States Government or the State government is entitled to the funds?

Mr. HARDEY. I am sure nothing like that has been done.

Senator DONNELL. The people of Louisiana, the officers of Louisiana, knew of the proclamation issued by the President of the United States on September 28, 1945, with respect to the Continental Shelf, did they not?

Mr. HARDY. Yes. Our determination and our judgment was that that had nothing whatever to do with the tidelands, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully ask leave to read that proclamation into the record at this point:

PROCLAMATION 2667

POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES WITH RESPECT TO THE NATURAL RESOURCES OF THE SUBSOIL AND SEABED OF THE CONTINENTAL SHELF

By the President of the United States of America.

A proclamation:

Whereas the Government of the United States of America, aware of the longrange world-wide need for new sources of petroleum and other minerals, holds the view that efforts to discover and make available new supplies of these resources should be encouraged;

Whereas its competent experts are of the opinion that such resources underly many parts of the Continental Shelf off the coasts of the United States of America, and that with modern technological progress their utilization is already practicable or will become so at an early date;

Whereas recognized jurisdiction over these resources is required in the interest of their conservation and prudent utilization when and as development is undertaken; and

Whereas it is the view of the Government of the United States that the exercise of jurisdiction over the natural resources of the subsoil and seabed of the Continental Shelf by the contiguous nation is reasonable and just, since the effectiveness of measures to utilize or conserve these resources would be contingent upon cooperation and protection from the shore, since the Continental Shelf may be regarded as an extension of the land-mass of the coastal nation