and sea, without any enquiries, is unheard of, and whether they were dismissed, or had leave to return to their commands, if they are superseded by others, before the busy scene of action is closed, it is much the same; if no leave is given for such dismission, we must suppose those officers hardly, cruelly, and unjustly dealt by, because it leaves a suspicion which you thereby deprive them of the power to wipe off. My lords, I could enumerate evils that have sprung from each of these different heads, that would employ the whole day, as I could upon some others of as great consequence with regard to the fleet, but which I shall take some other opportunity for. I see in the countenances of many of your lordships, that these evils are too generally known and felt, to require my further dwelling upon. And I am certain that many of your lordships, who formerly thought it necessary to support the ministers, by way of giving them what was called a fair trial, have since condemned almost every step that has been taken in consequence of such support. Do not therefore make yourselves farther accessary to the crimes of such ministers, by continuing that support, but endeavour to atone for the past by uniting in delivering the King and the nation from the continuance of such pernicious counsellors. I therefore hope, my lords, you will suspend any address, till you have taken the pre sent state of the nation into your consideration, and then found one thereupon. The Earl of Effingham condemned the Speech and the Address in the strongest terms. He said the minister had put words into the King's mouth, which tended to hold forth an idea, that parliament had planned the measures which had for a series of years been pursued respecting America. The contrary was notorious; parliament had been, kept in all possible ignorance by administration, who alone had planned those measures which had proved so destructive to Great Britain, and to which the loss of America was solely ascribable. That all along indeed, the ministry had artfully endeavoured to colour their bad policy, under the name of the King, and under the authority of parliament. That they had presumed to say the whole war was planned by his Majesty, whose plan it no more was than it was his. His Majesty had too much generosity to have schemed a system so opposite to every idea of liberality, justice, and humanity. So far from attempting to conciliate matters, administration had, from the commencement of the war, done every thing to aggravate America and widen the breach between her and the mother country; that therefore what the speech called conciliatory measures, might properly be ranked among their vigorous and active exertions. He blamed them for their repeated as. surances to parliament that France would not interfere, and begged them to recollect that they had heard again and again, from one side of the House, that France would certainly, according to her constant practice, take advantage of our embarrassments, and endeavour to retrieve her credit. The earl accused the first lord of the Admiralty of having failed in his promise to the House respecting the state of the navy. That noble earl had declared, that in his opinion no person ought to hold the office of first lord of the Admiralty, unless he always took care to have at home a larger force than the House of Bourbon could send against us. Had this been the case as yet, although only one branch of the House of Bourbon was in arms against us? On the contrary, were we not inferior every where? That was, wherever our fleets met the fleets of France. His lordship spoke of the affair off Brest; and after having adverted to various other particulars, concluded with objecting to the Address. The Earl of Suffolk said, that the noble earl (of Coventry) had opened his speech with saying, that he never retracted his opinion respecting America. He could truly affirm the same. The noble earl had likewise imputed all our misfortunes to the corruptions of the times; and supposed, that no measures of state received the sanction of parliament, till preceded by a thorough reformation. For his part he could answer for one, that his conduct was not influenced by any such motives. He had neither pension, sinecure, nor reversion, and he could safely add, though placed in a very high office under his sovereign, he was unconscious of being actuated by any other motives, but a zeal for the interests of his King and country. When, therefore, he gave his sentiments, either in his official situation, or as a mem ber of that House, he should continue to give them without reserve; little regarding what interpretation might be put upon them; being perfectly satisfied of the rectitude of his own intentions. The noble the independency of America! Would his lordship, who had said so much to prove, that a plan of coercion was impracticable, infer that we were incapable of continuing the war? Would he infer, that because from adverse accidents, we had not met with that degree of success our exertions gave us reason to expect, that America was irretrievably lost, and for ever lopt off, from this country? If the noble earl was fully of that opinion, he begged leave to assure him, that the contrary was the fact; and, that his conclusions must of course prove erroneous? We were, he confessed, surrounded with numerous difficulties, and threatened with great danger; but our resources were not exhausted, our spirit was not broken. We had more than once risen superior to greater difficulties, extricated ourselves from greater embarrassments, and surmounted dangers much more alarming, because immediately affecting us, as a free and independent nation. But supposing the noble earl's position to be ever so satisfactory and conclusive; the Address, as a measure of state, still stood clear of all ground of solid objection. The Speech imported no more than a communication to parliament of the danger of the kingdom from the perfidy of France. Could it be a question with that House, what was the proper conduct on such an occasion? That is, whether their lordships should assure his Majesty of their ready support, under the present circumstances, or without proposing any amendment, to meet the objectionable part of the Address, give a direct, unqualified negative to the whole. Another noble earl (Bristol) wishes only to suspend the Address, till an enquiry be made earl said, that several noble lords who supported the American measures, had been taught by experience to give them up: it might be a very good reason; but since the last session, circumstances had changed, that reason might operate with several other noble lords to change their sentiments, on account of a different face of affairs. The contest originally existed between Great Britain and her colonies; the grounds of contest were shifted; it was no longer a question, whether America was to submit, but whether she would accept of the most mild and equitable terms, even according to her own ideas; or be considered as an open enemy, in alliance with a perfidious and dangerous foe: so that although it might be the opinion of several of their lordships, that America some time since was not worth the risk and expence of recovering, as part of the dominions of the British crown, the question was now quite different; it was, whether we should submit to France and America, and permit them to dictate their own terms. In this view, the several negatives given to the motion plainly amounted to this: We will not support you against France; it being, in the present state of affairs, impossible to separate, even in idea, France from America. Indeed, the Congress have told the commissioners directly so; it is evident, therefore, that putting a direct negative to the Address, would be no less than submitting to any terms France might think proper to describe; and that at a time, when a contrary conduct was so obviously necessary, for the maintaining the honour and dignity of the crown, and promoting and securing the prosperity and safety of the kingdom. The best way, in his opinion, to obtain a secure and honour-into the conduct of ministers: this is a able peace, was to convince our enemies that we were both willing and able to pursue the war with vigour. The noble lord had much insisted on the deplorable state of this country, both in respect of its domestic situation, and its state respecting other powers. He had talked much of the situation of America, and pointed out three different modes of extricating ourselves from our present difficulties. The first by coercion; the second, by declaring America independent; and the third, that idea long since exploded, of withdrawing our troops and armies, which was indeed involved in the second, the proposition which exclusively met the noble earl's approbation. God forbid that he should ever be a witness to that House avowing most extraordinary proposition indeed; it has all the defects of a direct negative, under the idea of procuring a remote and uncertain advantage. For my part, I have no objection to a particular enquiry, so that it be properly conducted; but I would have it made in such a manner, that, if set on foot, it should not afterwards be defeated; that the two Houses being engaged on the same object, they should not clash with each other. As for general enquiries, I must confess, I do not much approve of them; they usually terminate ineffectually; if, therefore, an enquiry should be thought necessary, let it be specifically pointed; and so ordered, that all the declared purposes of it may be practicable, and fully attainable. The Address went no further than a general declaration to support his Majesty in a war against France: if a war with America should be involved in a resistance to the perfidious ...and insolent demands of France, that was not imputable either to the ministers, parliament, or the nation at large. It was a just war; it was now become absolutely necessary, as well for the sake of public security, as the preservation of our national interests; those, therefore, who voted for the Address, would vote for that security and those interests. | admiral and general who had accepted of The Earl of Derby hoped he should not be charged with inconsistency of conduct, in voting against the address, for he still was steady to the principle first taken up and maintained by him, both in the other House and here, which was, that Great Britain, as the parent state, had a right to tax America, for certain purposes, and on particular occasions; such as either regarded the general defence of the empire, His lordship next adverted to what had or were directed to its collective strength fallen from the noble earl who seconded and the joint prosperity of the different the Address, respecting the distressed parts of which it was composed. He was state of the manufacturers and mechanics; not ashamed to acknowledge, that he stre- and said, he drew a very different conclunuously supported administration in the sion from the same premises; for instead endeavour to establish that right: but of their being reasons to go to war with finding the attempt to fail by the weak France and America united, he thought and impolitic conduct of ministers, and they afforded the most self-evident proofs deeming it now totally impracticable, he of the necessity of avoiding to rush blindly thought it his duty to withhold his farther into a war, which, if prosecuted on the support from men unworthy of public con- plan approved of in the address, must, infidence, and from measures, which must stead of alleviating those miseries, increase inevitably miscarry, he feared, in the most them tenfold. This was a new mode of able hands. The moment of success was remedying one evil, by introducing another passed, and ruin would, in all human pro- of infinitely greater magnitude. bability, be the consequence of attempting noble earl had spoken only of the distress to catch at that, which was now for ever of the towns in his own immediate neighbeyond our reach. He could not restrain bourhood; he could contribute to swell the the indignation he felt at the hints thrown melancholy catalogue, and heighten the out by the noble earl who spoke last, rela-picture; there was not a manufacturing tive to the means intended to be adopted town in the kingdom, he believed, which against America; which he presumed im- had not in a greater or less degree felt the plied an intention of burning her towns, dire effects of the present war. The oncebutchering her innocent and defenceless flourishing town of Liverpool, near which inhabitants, in cold blood; massacring he lived, afforded a most melancholy proof old men, women, and every degree of of the innumerable mischiefs caused by the the defenceless of both sexes, to the in- present war; it would have been ruined, fant on the breast: of relying solely on but for the success of its privateers, and the tomahawk and scalping knife, or in the the uncommon spirit of enterprize with language of the noble earl, upon a former which its inhabitants of every rank united occasion, the having recourse to those themselves; their efforts had, indeed, been means which God and nature had put into remarkably successful. It however was a our hands. His lordship went into a ge-known fact, that there was an end to their neral condemnation of the conduct of the ministry, respecting general Burgoyne. He likewise went into a detail of their shameful conduct towards almost every The good fortune. Privateering would not long continue a lucrative trade; the success could be felt but by a few, and when the benefits derived from it were scattered and sunk in the general mass, the former distresses of the merchants and traders would shortly return, a few fortunate adventurers only excepted. His lordship returned to the mode of carrying on the war. It was true, our coasts were pretty well guarded; but let their lordships seriously reflect on the danger they would be liable to, from the depredations of French frigates, letters of marque, &c. in situations far distant from ports, places of defence, &c. in which event, the crews of those vessels acting upon principles equally humane, night in turn become the perpetrators of the utmost cruelty. The earl declared he was so far from objecting to punishing the perfidy of France, that he really thought the speech did not describe the conduct of that court in terms sufficiently abhorrent. He begged the lords in office to recollect, that he was one of the first in that House to declare he thought the French rescripts an absolute declaration of war. He had so much of the Englishman left, that he felt a degree of indignation, scarcely in his power to keep under proper bounds, when he reflected on the mean, the unjust, the treacherous part which France had acted respecting Great Britain; that he was ready to join in any proper plan, to retaliate on a foe so totally destitute of every honest principle. That it was however right for their lordships to consider their ability and situation, as far as it regarded their desires to punish France; a man was not to run his own head against a stone-wall, in order to be revenged of another person. The present moment was unfavourable; it was neither politic nor prudent to attempt the chastisement of France just at this time. France had joined America; Spain was expected to join France; Holland as a commercial nation, would most probably enter into treaty with America; all the world might follow the example of France! Would ministers go to war with all the world? For if their sole reason for going to war with France now, was her having entered into treaty with America, the same reason might involve them in universal war. Let them consider our losses, the state of our finances, the state of our forces. We might almost be said to be without men, without money, and without an ally! His lordship, in the course of his speech, urged, in very strong terms, the necessity of a change of men as well as of measures. The Bishop of Peterborough. (Dr. John Hinchcliffe.) It is a melancholy justifica tion of their opinion, which those who differ from the majority of your lordships have this day in the event of their predictions, that what a few months ago was only probable conjecture, is now history; nor needed it the spirit of prophecy to foresee, that measures planned and persevered in, on partial and erroneous information, must soon or late naturally end in disappointment and disgrace. Would to God that the decrease of foreign empire were the only calamity we have to lament: unhappily for us, the same system of councils which have lost the empire of America, have likewise involved us in a ruinous war at home. I readily agree with the noble duke who moved this Address, in laying much of the blame on the perfidy of France. Her conduct has certainly not been consistent with the moral principles of truth or justice; but he must have little acquaintance with the history of mankind, who could trust altogether to those principles for security, against the interest and ambition of a rival state, whose professed objects are wealth and empire. It never could be reasonably expected that France, of so high a spirit as she is, should forget at once the humiliation of the last war, and neglect the favourable opportunity which we ourselves afforded her, to retrieve her credit and gratify her resentment. I presume not, my lords, however, to offer any opinion how far it be prudent or necessary to persist in a war with France. We seem to be in this untoward dilemma; either we must submit to the indignity which France has put upon us, or for the same reason declare war against every state that shall dare to acknowledge the independence of America. One thing, indeed, appears very evident, that in the present situation of our affairs, while it is seen that neither our force can compel, nor our propositions lull America into submission; when Great Britain is drained of her veteran troops, and Ireland in a state almost defenceless; when the coasts of France are covered with her armies, and her fleets are spreading over the ocean; when our national credit is so low, and the debt already so enormous; it is evident, I say, that we are not in a condition to contend against the united force of France and America. The attempt would be rashness, and the expence of even victory itself probably prove our ruin. I cannot, therefore, give my assent to the Address, because, although it is specious in its professions of support against the I must, however, beg your lordships will do me the justice to believe, that whatever may have fallen from me upon this subject, has proceeded from no personal or private view whatever; I know it is my duty to support the honour and dignity of the crown, as well as the peace and prosperity of my country. Happy had it been for both, if Great Britain, while possessed of these blessings, had but known their value, and been content to have enjoyed them, with an equal and grateful mind. Still more fortunate had it been for us, if the warning so frequently repeated had been attended to in time, to have prevented things coming to this fatal extremity: the only hope under God's blessing now remaining, is, that as we cannot but be sensible of our political errors, we may have virtue enough still left to acknowledge them; and that henceforth, laying aside for ever the vain idea of unconditional submission, we may once more return to those principles of moderation, which had raised this country to the highest pitch of glory, and which alone can ever render the government of it easy and secure, so long as we remain a brave and free people. The Earl of Sandwich. I have been almost 40 years a member of this House, and do not recollect another instance, in which a negative has been attempted to be put on the Address in answer to the speech from the throne; for what does such a negative import, but that although his Majesty comes to parliament to seek the aid of his subjects, towards defeating and repelling the traitorous designs of France, openly abetted by our rebel subjects, the proposed negative substantially answers, "we will not?" The invariable mode of proceeding, when the contents of the whole speech is not approved of by any of your lordships, is to propose an amendment, by which the whole of the Address, but the title, is left out, and another introduced under the first title, recommending a contrary or a varied line of measures; or when only certain passages are objected to, by moving to leave them out; or lastly, when additional measures are thought necessary, by making an amendment which shall contain such additional measures. How does the case stand? Instead of keeping the title, and moving to leave out the remainder of the Address, of omitting certain passages, or adding or introducing another paragraph or paragraphs, we hear nothing offered this night, but a simple unconditional negative. As to the Address itself, considered upon every principle of sound policy, it meets with my most hearty approbation, nor can I perceive a single objection of any weight, which can possibly be urged against it; unless an incessant desire of opposing every measure, suggested by the present administration, be sufficient to give energy and force to every thing which a captious desire to find fault may think proper to direct that way. I entirely unite with the noble earl in the blue ribbon, in his idea of the real question, and approve of his manner of stating it. "His Majesty has told his parliament, and told them truly, that the kingdom is in danger," and asks their support against France. Will any one of your lordships call himself an Englishman, and yet refuse your support against a foe, who without the least provocation, has broke through the faith of treaties, and not only has joined America upon principles of commerce, but has actually commenced open hostilities against Great Britain? A noble earl (of Effingham) was pleased to remind me of what had fallen from me several times in the course of the last session. I am much obliged to his lordship for affording me an opportunity of clearing up the matter, and putting it upon its true footing. His lordship supposes that I said early in the last session, that I would undertake, at all times, to have a naval force equal to cope with, or superior to, any which the united efforts of the House of Bourbon would be able to bring against us. I confess, that these amount pretty nearly to my words; but then it must be considered, that this general opinion had relation only to the home defence; besides, it did not intend to imply any assertion, that we had such a naval force; but that we ought to have a force, at all times, equal to cope with that of the House of Bourbon. I am still of the same opinion, that we ought; nor do I hold myself responsible, as an official man, that we have not. I act merely ministerially, under the direction of his Majesty's councils, and can never therefore be deemed farther responsible, or bound by any engagement, than so far as I am enabled to perform it. The noble earl says, that so far from being equal to the united force of the House of Bourbon, we are inferior to a single branch of it, that of France. This I deny, and |