likewise criminal, though in an inferior dede gree. He concluded by pronouncing the panegyric of his hon. friend Mr. Burke. of such parts of the instructions given to general sir William Howe, as relate to any intended co-operation with lieut.-general Burgoyne."—It was negatived. Debate in the Commons on the Ordnance Estimates.] Dec. 4. The Report of the Committee of Supply was brought up. On the Resolution that 682,816. be granted for the ordinaries and extraordinaries of the office of Ordnance for the year 1778, being read, Mr. Rigby, as one of the many who had voted for the war, thought it necessary to say something in his own vindication: and declared, that for upwards of thirteen years he had been invariably consistent: he had been convinced, that Great Britain was supreme over all her dominions; it was declared so, early in the reign of George the 2nd, who taxed the colonies, and acknowledged by them when they submitted Sir Philip Jennings Clerke moved to to be taxed: from a tax imposed and sub-recommit the report, and said: When I mitted to, he inferred a right to tax; and am called upon to vote this enormous supfrom that conviction he had acted when ply, I hope I shall not be thought irreguhe voted for the war; and he was still of lar, if I say a few words on the great Ameopinion, that every nerve should be strain-rican business, which is the occasion of the ed to prosecute it with vigour. Lord North rose, and expressed his sorrow at the present unhappy news. He said, that no man from the beginning more firmly wished for peace than he had; and that no man would do more to obtain it now if the laying down his place and honours would accomplish it, he would gladly resign them all. He owned he had been dragged to his place against his will: a place which, while in possession, however disagreeable, he would support to the best of his power. As to the noble lord in the American department, he trusted he had acted on the soundest principles of candour and deliberation. He could not possibly make any objection to the inquiry into that noble lord's conduct, as he made no doubt but he would acquit himself before that House. He concluded with defending the general subject of the American war, by observing, that he thought it entirely necessary that every part of the British empire should contribute to the defraying the common necessary expences. He said the ministers were unjustly accused, when they were reproached with their want of information, for that they had always given the best they could procure; and that he was ready when the general voice of the House should call for it, to explain his own conduct; and that whether we were for peace or war, the present supply was absolutely necessary, as the men must be, supposing a cessation of arms, conducted home. The Resolutions were then agreed to. After which, Mr. Fox moved for "Copies of all Instructions, and other Papers, relative to the expedition from Canada, under lieutenant general Burgoyne; and also, a copy present demand. Shocked as I was at hearing of the fate of general Burgoyne and his army, I did presume to hope, that some possible good might be produced, as it often happens, from great evil. I began to think, that disappointment and misfortune might bring those who have the conduct of our American affairs to a more moderate way of thinking, and incline them to turn their thoughts to that which is the object of almost every person in this kingdom, peace and conciliation. I was justified in that expectation, because the noble lord who presides over the American department, when he came here the day before, with the extraordinary gazette in his hand, full of victory, full of triumph, told us then, it was not yet a time for peace. What does the noble lord tell us now? We are defeated, we must not be discouraged, we must renew our efforts, for there are great resources still left in this country. Neither victory nor defeat, then, are to produce any good to this country; for if victory was not to be the means, I thought defeat might have been. But whether victors or vanquished, according to the noble lord's declarations, we are still to pursue this hopeless, ruinous quarrel. The noble lord has talked of resources still left. Does he think that all the money in this country will be given to support this ill-planned, ill-conducted, sanguinary project? Has he told the country what benefits are to arise from the success of his plans? No, Sir, he has not; but I will venture to pronounce then, that if he was to succeed to the extent of his wishes, no one man in this country could ever obtain the return of a single guinea, for all the blood and treasure which has been already so profusely lavished away in this very unnatural contest. Let the noble lord tell them these truths, before he applies for further support. Conscious of a majority in this House, he sits here, and seems to bid defiance to the country; but let me tell the noble lord, there is a spirit still left in this country to resent injury, and resist oppression: I hear nothing even now, but murmurs and complainings in the streets. When I return to the country, I expect to find dissatisfaction and clamour. Let me advise the noble lord to be a little cautious, lest those anathemas which he has been so long thundering out against America, should fall with redoubled violence on his own head. It will appear wonderful that the noble lord, or any man high in office, should so obstinately persist in prosecuting a war against the sense of the people, which must ever be attended with difficulty and danger to the conductors of it, in preference to peace when he might repose himself in ease and affluence; it wants explanation, and to the public it shall here be explained. The true cause is really this; the noble lord knows that he never can make peace with America. The people of that country will have no treaty with him, or any man now in administration. They have long since branded them with the appellation of Tories, and justly have they done it; for they have almost ruined this great empire, by endeavouring to establish an arbitrary, despotic system of government in the colonies. These are the reasons, Sir, why this country and America are both deprived of the blessings of peace; and while that noble lord can shelter himself in a majority of this House, we have little chance to obtain it but by a remedy which would be worse than the disease. The situation of this country then may be pronounced to be truly deplorable, though I hope some means may be yet thought of to extract us from our present difficulties, even to the satisfaction of all parties. I have no personal dislike to any gentleman in administration. I wish them all well, but I wish them well out of their offices. May I be allowed to make a proposal, which I think might be very advantageous to them and to the public? There is an establishment in the sea service calculated to support superannuated officers, or who wish to decline further service. Now, if an establishment of that sort could take place, and an appointment made for ministers who have proved themselves unable and unfit for service, I think it would, in the present case, remove all difficulties. An appointment of yellow flag ministers would be no very extraordinary expence; perhaps a hundred thousand pound a year or two, might be sufficient to pay the salaries of all the gentlemen now in office. It would be an easy composition for their past services. The nation would save many millions a year by it: we should be restored to the blessings of peace: our ancient grandeur would again revive under the auspices of those great men who have formerly exalted us to the highest pitch of glory. These gentlemen would be in full enjoyment of their emoluments, and would escape the threats and dangers, which hang over their heads, and which must inevitably fall upon them, if they persevere in their endeavour to ruin this country. Colonel Barré. I think it my duty to enquire into the reasons why such a supply is wanted: 683,000/. is a larger sum than was called for in the year 1759, that year in which the British name was in its zenith; when her arms were employed in every part of the world. But permit me to repeat to you, Mr. Speaker, the votes for the five first years of the last war. It will serve, in some degree, to shew the extent of the present contest. The ordnance charge for the first year then, was no more than 300,000/. for ordinaries and extraordinaries. The second 390,000l. the third, 393,000l. the fourth, 544,000l. and the fifth, which was the greatest year of the British name, no more than 543,000l. This, Sir, is a plain unornamented tale. There is no figure of rhetoric so demonstrative and convincing as a figure of arithmetic. Our ordnance charge, this year, the fourth of the American war, exceeds by 140,000l. the charge for the year 1759, and is greater than any grant ever made for any one year except 1761, when every resource of this kingdom was strained to an extent unknown before, and incredible even to ourselves; and yet the charge for 1761 exceeds the present by no more than 40,000l. I hope we shall seriously investigate the cause of this monstrous charge. Sir Charles Bunbury said, he had formerly been an advocate for lenient measures and a reconciliation with the colonies; every day shewed him more and more the necessity of adopting the advice he had presumed to give. America was invincible; the experience of every campaign added credit to the assertion: our resources have been sounded, and sorry he was to say they were not unfathomable: excessive sums are borrowed, and the whole art of financiering ransacked, to find out means of raising the necessary sums to pay the interest. As a country gentleman, he called on his brethren of that denomination to interpose and serve their country; their passive acquiescence to every new burden had made sir Robert Walpole say, that the landed gentlemen were like the flocks upon their plains; they suffered themselves to be shorn without resistance; while the trading part of the nation resembled the boar, who would not let a bristle be plucked from his back without making the whole parish echo with his complaints: what with specious pretences and fair words to the one, and treasury acorns, with which the other was fed, the minister had effectually silenced the hog, and imposed upon the honest simplicity and patience of the sheep. a What America would do now, he would not take upon him to say; but he could assure the House from the authority of dear, but unfortunate relation of his, the unhappy general Lee, that the Americans would, at the beginning of the dispute, have been perfectly satisfied to submit in every respect to Great Britain, provided they should be at liberty to raise, by what means they thought proper, any sum which the parliament of England should demand of them. He could not tell whether they would make such an offer now: but he would put them to the test; and, by offering them peace, employ the only possible means to subdue them; and that was by dividing them their independence was carried in the Congress but by a majority of two; it was therefore probable, that a strong party might be brought over, by granting them honourable terms: etiquette, punctilio, and every consideration of that kind should be given up: the public good should overbalance every motive of that nature. The state physicians had employed wrong remedies to cure them; they prescribed blisters, and set their patients mad: for his part, as he was but an humble apothecary in politics, he would apply a healing plaister. It might be objected, that, perhaps, they would not bear it: he would in that case make use both of persuasion and force. The ingredients of his plaister were a repeal of all the laws enacted against them since the beginning of the disturbances; and a positive renunciation on the part of the parliament to any claim of right to tax the colonies. [VOL. XIX.] This was a remedy which he flattered himself would still be able to effect a cure. He alluded to Mr. Rigby's assertion in the committee last night, that he had been invariably consistent in his political tenets for 13 years; for his part, he was of opinion with the author of Tristram Shandy, that what in a good cause should be called perseverance, in a bad one deserves no other name than that of obstinacy; it was possible, that the right hon. gentleman might have been wrong for a great part of the time he mentioned; in his opinion, he certainly was wrong; he therefore did not think he had a right to plume himself so much upon his consistency. He did not approve of the Solicitor General's endeavours to rouse the spirit of the nation to a further exertion, when it seemed already to have been screwed up to the highest key, without bringing us a jot nearer to a conquest of America. He let fall some expressions rather injurious to the consistency of general Conway's politics. He said, so long as there was a prospect of success or any real advantage from conquest, if we should prevail, he supported the measures of administration; but when it was acknowledged to be impracticable, by the very minister who had the conduct of our American affairs; and that the noble lord owned, that if we should subdue America it would not be worth keeping; he could no longer, consistent with his conscience, vote for a continuance of measures which could be productive of no good; and would, if persisted in, most probably bring on ruin and destruction. The contest with America struck him in this light before he heard it acknowledged by the noble lord. Towards the conclusion of the last session, he was persuaded of the truth of what he now said; and as soon as he was, he most earnestly recommended peace. He now did the same; and sincerely wished, that some person in his Majesty's confidence, having the salvation of his country at heart, would advise him to consider of the impending calamities, which threatened this country, should the present ruinous system be longer pursued. Mr. George Onslow insisted, that it was better to lose America by arms than by treaty; negociation would put an end to any further claim, while even a total defeat did not preclude us from renewing the war whenever we should find ourselves able to prosecute it with a probability of success: [2 N] the consequence of American indepen- said he, to hear why such quantities of dence must be the loss of Newfoundland, ordnance, and such numbers of men, were and all our sugar islands; for by their alli-wanted. Some person in the cabinet must ance with France and Spain, their united-shall inform me. I will not leave this fleets in that part of the world would be seat, nor depart from this House, till I am much too powerful for any force we could satisfied. I think I shall be excused by keep there. He voted against the repeal my country, if I speak again and again on of the Stamp Act; because he was of opi- the subject-if I trangress the point of nion, that we had a right to tax America; order, and urge my suit by many repetiand he was satisfied that the country gen- tions. I shall think myself within the best tlemen were so thoroughly convinced of point of order, if I adhere to the interest the supremacy of parliament over the co- of my constituents, and not suffer their lonies, that they would never have con- pockets to be picked for moonshine. I sented to a repeal of the Stamp Act, if promise you, Mr. Speaker, I will not go to it had not been accompanied with the supper, nor regard order, till I am satisfied. Declaratory Act. He did not hesitate What! the enormous sum of 683,000l. for to affirm, that the rebellion in America ordnance, 140,000l. more than was voted was fomented, nourished, and supported for the year 1759, when we were at war by the inflammatory speeches, and other with France and Spain, and had armies in means, used by the incendiaries in that America, in the West Indies, and over all House; but he trusted the nation, not- Europe, and immense fleets full of cannon withstanding all the disasters which had over all the world, in every sea, and in happened, was still equal to the chastise- every climate! Is it not strange and unment of all its foreign and domestic foes. accountable? Ought we not to inquire Mr. T. Townshend insisted upon know-into this new proof of ministerialism? In ing why so immense a sum was necessary, and he hoped some gentlemen in office would explain it in a clear and distinct manner. He likewise observed, that we had taken the most effectual method to drive the Americans into the arms of France and Spain, by the prohibitory, and other cruel and oppressive laws we had passed. They were now no less formidable at sea than land. Their navy had thrown the capital of our sister kingdom into the utmost confusion. Liverpool was threatened; Glasgow in danger; and the very channel of St. George saw their ships ride with impunity, nay triumph, along our coasts. Mr. Burke rose, and after expressing his surprize at the enormity of the charge, told the House he was the representative of one of the first counties, and most populous, commercial town, except London, in the kingdom. He believed his constituents paid one tenth part of the supplies granted by this House; he therefore thought it his duty to search into the reasons of the supply called for; and, as this appeared so enormous and unreasonable, 60 unprecedented and unaccountable, he would have the most particular information-he would be acquainted with every item-he would know every reason for the grant-he should consider himself a thief, without interest, if he permitted his constituents' pockets to be picked without being told for what or wherefore. I want, This 1759, we employed 250,000 men. Mr. Langlois said, one great reason of the advance was, that the train were acting in a hostile country in every sense of the word, so that every equipment was prepared and forwarded from hence at a greater expence than usual. Mr. Burke was obliged to the hon. gen. tleman for his explanation. America was an hostile country; and our troops met the most absolute hostility ever known; but that was no reason. He wanted to be informed particularly, why such equipments were necessary, and why so many men were there? Sir Charles Frederick said, that sending the artillery companies in three different bodies, to serve under as many generals in different places, had been attended with double the expence of what would have been necessary, had they served in one corps: that the foreign troops in British pay in the last war, found themselves in ammunition, and that was the reason why the estimate in 1759 was not more than double what it appears to have been, as | landed and commercial interests of this that was an estimate only for ordnance country, afford any arguments to withhold stores for the British troops. your hand, now is the time to attend to them. a total, as if the House had been apprized of it but two years ago, I think the most bigotted advocate for the war would have hesitated. But it was a master-piece of craft in the administration, to lead us on insensibly, concealing from the public the fatal consequences, till we were plunged in too far to retreat. The House must well remember at the opening of the first Lord North said, that though we had 250,000 men in pay in 1759, yet the ord- To give you in one view the amount of nance estimate was made only for the the American war hitherto, with the suBritish forces, which were only a very peradded expences of only one more camsmall part of that number. That the sub-paign, will make a stupendous total. Such sidies paid to the German princes included the ammunition, stores, &c. and were provided for apart and independent of the ordnance estimate: that he had not expected such a motion would have been made, or he would have examined the estimates of 1759; that he would take the first opportunity to do it, and imagined upon inquiry he should be found to be right in his opinion. There were a thou-session of this parliament, which was the sand other circumstances, which constituted the difference; but the chief was, the including in the one, and the excluding from the other, the expence of the German artillery. We paid for them at both periods; but in 1759, the charge, though in effect essentially the same, was placed to a separate account. He would, how-million of the national debt. All this was ever, compare the estimates, which would enable him to give a more particular and full explanation on a future day. Mr. Burke was happy, that he had set the premier to study; and should depend upon his honour, for a satisfactory answer. The Resolutions were then agreed to. Debate in the Commons on Mr. Hartley's Motion relative to the Enormous Expences of the American War.] Dec. 5. Mr. David Hartley said: Sir; the great importance of the subject, upon which I shall offer some opinions to the House this day, will, I hope, plead my apology, for the trouble which I am going to give them. I wish to call their most serious attention to the extravagant and boundless expences of the American war, which after all is an impracticable project, as well as unjust, and universally destructive. I take this early part of the session to state the expences of the war, if it should continue another campaign, that you may be apprized in time. What is called the budget day is usually at the end of the session; when all measures of the year are decided upon; it is then too late to consider of the expences; measures that are predetermined must be supported, cost what they will. But if the enormous expence of this fatal war, and all the rainous consequences which await the beginning of the war, that a 3s. land-tax was voted before Christmas, to take off the alarms of the landed gentlemen. Your seamen were reduced to 16,000 men, which is the lowest establishment for profound peace. The minister amused the public in that session with paying off a done to lead you insensibly on, by false pretences, till it was too late to retreat. Unfortunately, the minister obtained his end: the deception was universálly encouraged. Those who would have advertised you of these deceptions, and of your dangers, were browbeaten and discountenanced; even a patient hearing was denied to them. In this particular department of the revenue, I have made it my business every year, to lay a true and accurate state before you, in opposition to those premeditated and treacherous fallacies which have been imposed upon the House by the authority of the administration. I should think myself unworthy of any farther confidence of this House, if I had been the author of all those fallacies, which have brought this country to the brink of ruin. But, Sir, I have never deceived you, nor have I offered any idle tales or visionary calculations to the House. Your Journals will bear me testimony. The superior authority of the minister's opinion in this House overbore mine. Upon his authority they gave a negative to those estimates and calculations, which, however, in the result have proved true. That they have proved true, this House and the nation now know to their cost. 1 once more offer myself, in humble deference to their wisdom, but claiming some confidence in their opinion. I say to you, now; Trust no longer those false prophets, |