987] 18 GEORGE III. Debate on the Earl of Effingham's Motion by the government, though the item of the The Duke of Bolton observed, that as [988 ing. To pretend to conceal it from France, was to the last degree absurd; but considering its real condition, it was by no means surprising, that the noble earl was so extremely desirous to conceal it from parliament; because if the latter knew it, So long as parliament remained in the it might affect the noble earl personally. dark, the noble earl only run the risk of suffering in the general ruin. When, therefore, the noble earl objected so strongly to the account of ships and vessels broke up or disposed of, he might have his reasons for opposing it, and probably they were very cogent ones. could have happened, because no addiThe noble earl had said, that no rise tional official expence had been incurred. He would have been much better pleased, to hear his lordship assert positively, that no increase had taken place. The only increase the noble earl acknowledged, was the commissioners appointed for the docks in America. That could not possibly affect the estimates of 1773, or any other yet given in; and as for the additional clerks, he presumed, the noble earl would hardly pretend, that their salaries amount. ed to the difference charged in the esti mate; nor did he hear his lordship assign a single reason, for making a new esta blishment for the additional clerks, instead of paying them out of the fund appro priated for that purpose; but supposing it to be the fact, he would be glad to know, formerly paid out of, was appropriated. to what new purposes the fund they were to go down to the other House of Parlia His grace finally observed it was needless ment to hear them expatiate on the extravagance of administration; needless to bring evidence to the bar of their lordships' House to prove it in any particular instance; needless to look for it in the papers on the table, for that the whole various departments of government. kingdom rung with accounts of it in the gument, he took notice of a certain hos Having for some time pursued this ar pital, the revenue of which he particularly stated; shewing that its income amounted to near 100,000l. annually; notwithstand. ing which he declared, government contie nued to grant it year after year some thousands for its support, and even now, when we were in a state of war, and con sequently the annual subscriptions from the men employed were greatly increased, it was set down for which the parliament voted money. among the list of purposes now than at that period; he had given himself the trouble to inquire into some of the prices of stores in 1727, and had found that they were so far from being less, that they were infinitely dearer then than now : as a proof of this he mentioned the price of pitch, which was of late only 6s. a barrel, but 17. 2s. in 1727; of tar and oil, which were cheaper now in almost an equal proportion. To this his grace added, that he had met with a book, relative to the hospital he had alluded to, in which it was stated that the directors of that hospital had subverted its charter in more than one act, and especially in the appointment of officers who were not sea-faring men. The charges made in the book he said, he verily believed, and so far was it from being an anonymous publication, that it was professedly written by the lieutenant-governor of the hospital, a man whom he had sent for upon reading the book and conversed with, and whom he had not only found to be a very sensible man, but had heard declare, that what he had asserted was strictly true, and that he was ready to make good every one of his charges on oath in any court in the kingdom. Among other proofs of mismanagement in the direction of the hospital, the duke said, one was, the directors having, at the instance of the lieutenant-governor, prosecuted to conviction the butcher with whom they contracted, in one penalty, for serving the hospital with bull beef instead of ox beef, and having afterwards convicted him in ten other penalties, and when they had him in court to pay them, they not only compounded the whole, but in a short time employed the same butcher, and gave him 28. 6d. a hundred more for his beef than before. His grace declared that he was a governor in a double capacity, as an admiral and as a privy counsellor; that he had made it his business to inquire into the facts, and was certain of what he mentioned: he added, that the direction had of late years been strangely filled, that it had a continual majority in it who did what they pleased, and that gentlemen of real weight and ability kept away from the board for that reason. The duke took notice of Mr. Atkinson's contract, which he said was made by a noble lord in his closet, secretly and privately in a manner in which he had no right to make it: that it was enough to alarm the public; and if the first lord of the Admiralty persisted in refusing to accede to the motions, he flew in the face of parliament, whose duty it was not more to grant money, than to examine the accounts of government, and see that the public money had not been prodigally thrown away. The Earl of Effingham said, that as he expected it might be argued against his comparison of the expences of the ordinary of the navy, &c. in 1727 and at present, that every sort of naval stores was much dearer The Earl of Sandwich complained much of the unfair practice of going into matter foreign to the subject in debate, of the unparliamentary mode lately adopted, of referring to prior debates, and reciting what had then been spoken. His own memory was tolerably tenacious, but as other lords were not quite so happy, it was exceedingly injurious to attempt to repeat what had been said on another occasion. The noble duke who spoke last but one, had much misrepresented him in declaring he had said, that when lord Hawke left the Admiralty, every officer in it was in a state of despondency, on account of the deplorable state of the navy; he had said no such thing, nor ever let fall a single expression which could be construed into an insinuation that lord Hawke had not done his duty. On the contrary, not one of their lordships could think more highly of lord Hawke than he did, and he should be as full of presumption as man could possibly be, if he did not feel and confess his own inferiority to his predecessor in office. He had never thought that the navy was otherwise in a weak condition when he had the honour to be appointed to his place, than as it necessarily must be at the end of a long war. In a long war we used our ships much, because a greater number was consequently employed; the more service, the more wear and tear. Ships were necessarily built in a hurry of green timber, and when on the rumour of a war with Spain, just before his entrance into office, those ships were wanted for actual service, they were discovered to be in a very ruinous condition. His expression as to the despair of those in the different departments of the admiralty and navy, when he came into office, was merely respecting the want of English timber, it being generally ima gined that there was not any in the kingdom. His lordship said he could not with patience hear the noble duke mention in that House a publication which would be properly noticed in another place, and which it was every way beneath their lordships to advert to. The book contained charges against the directors of Greenwich hospital so scandalous, that he did not doubt but they would feel themselves impelled to call the asserter of them to account in the court of King's-bench. The directors were men of considerable character, of consi-, derable property; some of them, the first merchants in London; their conduct towards the hospital had been irreproachable, and as to what the duke had said relative to the meat imposition, he was quite mistaken. The man was prosecuted, not by the lieutenant governor alone, but by the whole board of directors, and so far were they from encouraging him, that they had been obliged to enter a fresh contract with him, because his offer was the fairest. All the contracts of Greenwich hospital were publicly and openly made, consequently it was the duty of the directors to close with that offer which was the best. Mr. Mellish was the man contracted with. Mr. Mellish was no butcher, but a wholesale dealer in cattle, a man so largely employed in that way, that he almost held a monopoly of the business. The noble duke had urged the parliamentary grant, for the support of Greenwich hospital, as a mark of the extravagance of government. It was no such thing. The hospital, it was true, had large revenues, but it was a part of its establishment to call upon government for aid, when those revenues were not entirely adequate to its necessary expences. It had this year only asked 4,000l. of government, which was but a very trifling sum, considering the great purposes which the hospital served. This sum it wanted to pay the out-pensioners, who were formerly 1,000, but were now not half that number, and were daily decreasing. It was true, in proportion to the number of seamen employed, the sixpences received, increased, but they were not yet come in. Let the noble lords look at Chelsea hospital, and compare its state and its necessities with that of Greenwich; and the very trifling expence the nation was put to in supporting the latter, compared with the enormous sums voted annually for the support of the former. Before he concluded, his lordship took occasion to defend the noble lord in the other House, from the accusation of having made a contract in his closet, declaring that such a charge was altogether irregular and unparliamentary; that it tended to cast an imputation on the noble lord, as if he had any interest in the contract, or had been influenced by any private or mercenary views; a suspicion for which there was not the slightest ground. That noble lord, he owned, had his failings as well as his virtues, and no man was without; but those who knew him well, knew that he was as much superior to a mean action as any man in the kingdom; that there did not exist a man of more integrity, and that the very honourable issue to the enquiry set on foot, respecting the contract alluded to, in the other House, was an incontroversible proof of the full conviction of the noble lord's rectitude of conduct, and the shame which fell upon those who ventured to make the accusation. The Duke of Bolton said, that so far from thinking the affairs of Greenwich hospital well conducted, he was satisfied of the very contrary. The sixpences of this year were not yet come in, but those of the two preceding, if they were not, ought to have been, which were very considerable; 28,000 seamen being voted the first, and 45,000 the last; besides, there was the Derwentwater estate, and some other revenues, which made the whole amount to upwards of 70,000l. per annum. He had strong reasons to be convinced, that the income of the hospital, if properly managed, was more than sufficient to answer all the outgoings. The Duke of Richmond observed, if the noble earl could bring no stronger proof of the rectitude of his own official conduct, than by resting it on a similar foundation with that of the noble lord in the other House (lord North) he believed it would be granting more than his lordship might be willing to accede to, if the consequence of the motion for enquiry was to be coupled with the proposition itself; for the consequence was, notwithstanding the lofty, flourishing panegyric pronounced by his lordship, that a committee to enquire into the expenditure of the public money was ordered to be ballotted for. If the noble earl was willing to adopt the noble lord's conduct in the other House, why not copy him in his candour, as well as every thing else? The noble lord was in possession of a majority; but what did the noble lord do? Though the enquiry was personally directed against him; instead of putting a flat negative, as the best proof of his innocence, he consented to it." He did not pretend to say whether his motion; that it was in fact the most material part, and as it was a fair object of parliamentary enquiry, he trusted their lordships would support him in urging it. He added, that he hoped the noble earl would not wantonly divide the House, merely to shew his own influence in it; that there was the greatest reason to suspect that the public money had not been expended with œconomy; that it was the duty of their lordships to examine how far that suspicion was well founded, that by so doing ministers might be rendered more careful, and the sums voted by parliament be laid out more providently in future. his lordship was censurable or not; he was however either blameable or misinformed. The rum contract had been referred to three merchants of the first eminence and reputation; they gave their opinion against it; and it was of little consequence to the nation, whether the money went into his lordship's own pocket, or into that of his secretaries, his friends, or his mistress. His grace replied to the general charges made against the propriety of parliamentary enquiries. He contended, that the committee on the state of the nation had been already productive of the most salutary effects, having rouzed the people to a proper sense of their calamitous situation, and given a check to ministers in the midst of their mad and ruinous career. His grace ended with declaring that the motions ought to pass, and that although reasons of weight existed against agreeing to them, the noble lord at the head of the Admiralty, whose conduct was supposed to be, in a great measure, involved in the event of them, should have been one of the last to oppose them. The question was then put on the first motion, when the numbers were; For it 20; Against it 50. The second motion was agreed to. As soon as the Lord Chancellor had read the motion for "An account of the number of ships broke up and sold, together with an account of what they sold for; and also an account of the quantity of old stores, and the prices at which they were sold," The Earl of Sandwich hoped the noble mover would consent to omit the first part of it, as it might prove detrimental to the interests of the country, by shewing France in what proportion our navy was decreased. The earl declared he had not the smallest objection to the House having a full account of the quantity of old stores sold, that he drew but a very small sum from the scale of them, he heartily wished it was a larger; but he was exceedingly willing to let their lordships know what it was. As however the nation was probably on the eve of a war with France, he thought it exceedingly imprudent to open, just at this time, any matters which could not, upon being investigated, serve this country, but might be advantageous to its enemies. His lordship concluded with saying, he believed the noble earl would gratify him in his request, and new-model his motion. The Earl of Effingham said, he could not, by any means, consent to forego that part of [VOL. XIX. ] The Duke of Bolton observed in a jocular manner that the noble earl who opposed the motion had let the cat out of the bag; and ironically congratulated those lords who had voted for an address to his Majesty, in answer to his message, upon what must necessarily be their feelings when they heard one of the ministry, who had been loudest in justifying the address, confess that he heartily wished we could avoid a war. His grace expressed his astonishment at the first lord of the Admiralty's conduct. Was the noble lord determined that the House should have no papers before them which threw a light upon his conduct in office? Did he mean flatly to say, their lordships should not be enabled to draw any conclusions, either as to the proper application, or the scandalous waste of the public money which had been voted for the navy service? The motion was exactly similar to motions formerly made on like occasions. The ships broke up were in fact part of the old stores, as much so as the old stores themselves, and it was ridiculous to say, that giving the House an account of them would furnish France with any information, but what she could with ease procure elsewhere. The Duke of Richmond arraigned administration in general, and the first lord of the Admiralty in particular, for treating parliament with such repeated disrespect. His grace advised, soothed, and threatened, urging those in office on the treble score of policy, civility, and safety, to relax of their wonted obstinacy in denying to furnish the House with all such papers as were likely to throw some light on their own conduct. He gave them this advice for their own sake, to prevent the dreadful consequences which he saw impending. Woe be to them if the public, who had so long trusted administration, and placed such implicit confidence in their wisdom [38] and integrity, found themselves at length | sures of government; but would any lord betrayed! Administration would feel the venture to say he was under influence? weight of popular vengeance. The noble The ministers knew his place was no tie lord at the head of the Admiralty, who upon him; they knew he always gave his now refused to accede to a motion not vote freely, and according to his real opionly founded on strong necessity, but con- nion. He was born the heir of a seat in sonant to parliamentary usage, would be that assembly; he enjoyed a peerage as his dragged from his place. There would be hereditary right. He could not therefore insurrections of the people, who would put sit silent and hear the earl talk of a servile him to death. [Here his grace was called majority; and he was amazed that goto order, but he persisted in his argument, vernment had so long suffered themselves declaring, he had a right to say what he to be abused; he hoped, however, they did, and he would not be interrupted.] would no longer be patient under such a The populace would rise, and serve the continued strain of invective, but would noble lord as the Dutch served the De take the proper means to prevent it in fu Witts, they would tear him limb from limb. ture. His lordship said, that the ministry Lord Dudley said, it was true, as the would always have a majority, for the monoble duke had mentioned, that the peo- ment that opposition divided as a majo ple were ready to rise; it was not how-rity, the present ministry would be no ever to destroy the members of administration, nor to punish those who deserved the thanks of their country, but to oppose the natural enemies of Great Britain, to fight the French, if they should think proper to invade the kingdom. The Earl of Effingham declared, that if the proofs of the extravagant and wasteful conduct of administration in the expenditure of the public money were denied him there, he would take care to produce them elsewhers. The public had a right to know in what manner their money was spent, and he would furnish them with information. It was in vain, he saw plainly, to attempt in that House to move for any thing which the ministers were not disposed to accede to. In the present instance, the first lord of the Admiralty knew his strength in a division. He would go below the bar, and take with him his he had like to have said-servile majority; he should not therefore rest satisfied, but would use proper means to come at the truth, which he would certainly communicate to the public. The Lord Chancellor left the woolsack in great warmth, declaring, that he felt himself called on to support the honour of the House. If such insinuations, and such language were suffered to pass unnoticed, the House would no longer be looked up to as the moderator between the King and the people. The noble earl had talked of a servile majority; were their lordships to be so grossly insulted without a rebuke? He had sat in that House seven years, and never before heard so indecent a charge. A servile majority! The insinuation was not warrantable. He had for one voted in favour of the mea more. The Duke of Manchester said, he conceived, by what had dropped from the noble lord on the woolsack, that some strange means were about to be taken in order to stop the mouths of those lords who did not think it right to coincide with every measure of administration; but in spite of the threat thrown out by the learned lord, he would persist in arraigning the King's servants, as long as they continued to act in so injurious a manner as they lately had done; and it was a matter of perfect indifference to him, whether they bore it patiently or not. It was sufficient for him to be conscious that he discharged his duty to the public. The question was then negatived without a division. The fourth motion shared the same fate. The fifth was agreed to. Debate on Mr. Wilkes's Motion relative to Private Aids or Loans to the Crown.] April 2. Mr. Wilkes rose and said: Sir; in this free country, where the people have so considerable a share in the legislature, I hold it to be the duty of every man to watch over the constitution. The members of this House are more particularly delegated to a charge of this moment and importance. Any wilful negligence or inattention in us would be a breach of trust, and highly criminal. In this thorough conviction, I shall take the liberty of submitting to your consideration some late proceedings, because I am convinced they are, although countenanced by the highest authority, directly repugnant to the genius of our laws and government. The late encroachments an |