cellor of the Exchequer pays the Company one million sterling on account, which implies that there is still a balance due to them. He may think so, or he may be told sʊ; but his private opinion, or his personal knowledge, is no ground to this House for paying a million of the public money to any body. Nothing could justify such a payment, but a report of the Committee of this House, specially appointed to examine and settle the claims on both sides.—There is another subject, Sir, of very great consequence to the nation, as well as to the Company, which I wish to bring into view, not so much for immediate discussion, as in hopes that it will be taken up by Parliament hereafter on a great comprehensive scale of national deliberation. I mean the real state and result of the Company's trade to the continent of India. Is it a profitable or a losing trade? Or, if there be an ultimate profit, is it at all proportioned to the capital employed, the charges, and the risk? On these questions, it would ill become me to say any thing but with the greatest diffidence. In opening the subject, I look for information from gentlemeu, who understand it much better than I do. The arguments I have heard on both sides have not ended in giving me perfect conviction on either; but assuredly they justify a doubt and call for an inquiry, in the issue of which the essential interests, perhaps the existence, of the India Company are involved. As long as the cargoes provided in India were paid for out of the surplus of territorial revenue, it was natural enough that the commercial profit or loss on the prime cost should be but little regarded, because the whole investment was a gift or a tribute to the Company. But habits grow out of an abundance of means, and are apt to continue when the means are gone. A wofol reverse has taken place in this branch of the Company's resources. Instead of providing their investment with the money of India, which was equivalent to getting it for nothing, they have for many years paid for it with money borrowed there at an exorbitant interest, and now with specie from England. On this footing is the trade profitable, and, without supposing any other disadvantages, can it be pursued? The reverse I allude to, does not end here. The hon. person, under whose administration of India the charter was renewed in 1793, declared that his plan was, to engraft an open trade on the exclu sive privilege of the Company, and that he had at last arranged it with the Company. This speculation is above me.

The proposition seems to involve a paradox in the idea, and a contradiction in the terans. I have no

conception of the manner, in which elements and principles so opposite to one another, as an open trade and an exclusive privilege, can act or subsist together. All general reasoning and common experience lead to a suspicion that, sooner or later, the stock will starve the graft, or the graft must kill the stock. On this question, however, we have now no accasion to speculate. An experiment of ten years ought to furnish a practical solution to all such doubts. Without regarding theories, I ask only, whether, in fact, the plan has succeeded. Are the parties satisfied? Do the chartered Company and the private merchant find all the advantage they expected from their respective participation in the object? or has the plan served only to throw an apple of discord among them? Of the success of the private trade, under the present distribution, I can form no judg ment. Whether any, and what compromise has taken place, I know not. But I shall be surprised, indeed, if in fact it should appear that a corporate body, acting by agency abroad, and loaded with expensive commercial establishments, is able to sup port a profitable competition with individuals, acting for themselves, alert and vigilant in the transaction of their business, who have nothing else to attend to, and who have no establishments to maintain. At all events, I can hardly state an object of inquiry more important to the Company than to know, what the real profit of their India trade (distinct from China) amounts to, on an account fairly made up, and charged, as it ought to be, with interest on the capital employed, loss on goods exported, &c. and not omitting any article of expense that ought to appear in such an account*. On the whole, Sir, I

* Extract of Mr. Henchman's speech, at a General Court of Proprietors, 8th April 1802, page 86.—“ la the calculations made by the Directors, no interest of money is charged on the capital employed; yet a great part of the Company's Indian invest ment is made with money borrowed at Indian interest; and the course of the business is this: it is borrowed early in the year, to be advanced to the native manufacturers. The goods are delivered in the course of the year; they are shipped in the beginning of the next year; at the end of it, they are sold in England; and, in the beginning of the third year, British manufactures are shipped in return, which may be sold in the course of that season; so that it must be thirty or thirty-six months before the money is realized to pay off the bond that was given for the first loan to make the investment. To this we may add five per cent, confessed to be lost in the experts. So that it may fairly be said, thirty-five per cent. is, on this account, to be added to the Company's expenses in making up the account. I will not stop to notice many other charges not calculated on by the Directors. This alone is sufficient to raise very

cannot think it possible for this House or for the Company to look at the actual state of their immense dominion in India, their revenues, their expenses, their debts, and their trade, and the course in which all these concerns are running into ruin, without seeing the necessity of meeting the case with stronger measures, and more vigour, than has yet been applied to it. Compared with the exigency, these voluminous accounts and annual budgets are mere formalities. They furnish some materials, but they provoke no injury. In this House, they excite neither attention nor attendance. The only things listened to or looked at, are the flattering commentary, and the delightful prospect. From year to year, as one set of promises fail, the next improves. A losing account is balanced by a winning estimate, and perpetual disappointment cured by vigorous expectation. An early and resolute parliamentary investigation into the state of India, and of every object connected with it, in my opinion is indispensable. Such was the course pursued in 1781. The House about that time appointed two Committees ; one to inquire into the political transactions in India, the other into the internal abuses of the government of Bengal, and the general result of the connexion of India with Great Britain as it then stood. Such Committees should be revived at stated intervals, and once at least in every Parliament. If the measure was wise and necessary in 1781, much more so is it now, when your dominion is double what it was, and your embarrassments greater than ever. Most earnestly would I urge and entreat his Majesty's ministers not to neglect this great national interest, to think of it in time, and put the consideration of it into a right course.

The

evil is not stationary. While ministers deiny they lose ground, and at last the object will force itself upon them with increasing difficulty and disadvantage.-There is another measure, very fit to be adopted by the Court of Proprietors in concurrence with Parliament, if they think they have any concern in the fate of the corporation. They have

serious doubts, whether the Company gain any thing by their Indian investments. But, say the Dircetors, the surplus has not appeared so large as it ught to have done, from the Company's adherence to the old forms of making the accounts. Now, I contend the very contrary of this, and assert that, if they did not adhere to these old forms, the surpluss would appear still less, instead of more. For the practice of the India House is, and has long been, to Vue the rupee at two shillings, whereas they have bills upon them, at rates of exchange much bigher, which of course must reduce, instead of augmenting their surplus profits."

an example of it in a proceeding of their. own in 1782, when they appointed a Committee to examine into the general state of the debts, credits, and effects of the Company both in England and abroad. I was named on that Committee. Their Report was drawn up by the late Mr. Orme and Sir John Call, The share, I had in it, was too inconsiderable to preclude me from saying, what I think of it, that a more able, judicious, and conclusive performance of that kind does not exist. The general principle on which they proceeded, was to class the debts and demands, according to their quality, on one side; and on the other, the corresponding property or assets, which might fairly be set against them in each class. They reminded the Proprietors, as I do now in the same terms, "How liable they and the pub-lic are to be misled, by the inspection of a general estimate; where, on the credit side, the quick stock in England is blended with the several quick stocks abroad, and one general total involves many articles, which are afloat, at risk, or obviously dormant and non-productive; thereby giving the whole an equal degree of creditable value, in opposition to debts, which are actually due, and must be paid in England; as well as others, which will ultimately come to be paid there, if not liquidated abroad."-At the close of their Report, they make an unnecessary excuse for having possibly exceeded the limits of their appointment, by giving opinions instead of adhering to figures only; and they conclude with a remark, not less applicable to present circumstances than those, to which it was applied: I cannot do better, than adopt their opinion in the same words, and repeat them as if they were my own:-"Situated as the Company now are, it is impossible to discuss the subjects of trade and expense, without adverting to col lateral objects, on which the others materiaily depend; because the Company may be successful in war, extend their possessions, and control the politics and princes of the east; while they are poor in revenue, distressed for resources to pay expenses, and bankrupts in trade."

Lord Castlereagh explained, and said, that he approved very much of the hon. gentleman's proposition, to probe these matters to the very bottom; and, for his own part, he was perfectly willing and prepared to meet him upon the subject whenever it was found proper to do so. As to specie being sent out of this country, that was not a circumstance which could be reckoned disadvantageous, if the value One of money was properly adverted to.

symptom of the prosperity of the Company was, that their assets had kept pace with their debts, and that they had been able to weather a war of ten years, without any increase of debt whatever. With respect to new loans appearing on the face of the accounts, if the hon. gent. would take the trouble to inquire, he would find that the Company were constantly making loans. The statement which he had taken the liberty of submitting to the House, was entirely such a one as had been laid before the House on similar cccasions, during the space of eight or ten years back. If the hon. gent. had really thought such statements mere formalities, he (Mr. Francis) was reprehensible in not having stated his opinion on former occasions, in order that some new mode might be adopted to render Indian affairs more clear and intelligible.

Mr. Johnstone thought, that the Company's affairs ought to be judged by other criterions than the accounts which were now laid before the House. In the course of his speech, he took occasion to observe, that there prevailed in India an inordinate spirit of extending the territorial possessions of the Company, and took notice of some acts in which the present government of Bengal and Mr. Wellesley took a part.

Mr. IV. Pole thought it neither manly nor decorous in the hon. gent. to throw such an imputation by a side wind against persons, who, if they had acted improperly, ought to have their conduct inquired into by that House.

Mr. Burrowes delivered his sentiments not only upon the subject regularly under the consideration of the Committee, but upon some of the rather irrelevant points which were introduced into the discussion, and spoke with considerable animation and ability. He could not possibly, he said, suppress the feelings of indignation at the unfounded charges thrown out by two gentlemen on the other side of the House, at so gross and indecent an attack made upon two noble personages then absent on the service of their country in situations of the highest trust, importance, and responsibi lity, and who, for their conduct in such situations, had received the unanimous thanks of that House, which was deservedly ranked among the brightest rewards their country had to bestow. He was resident in India the greater part of the time in which the transactions alluded to took plice, and therefore was enabled to speak

not only from documents, but from personal and local knowledge upon the subject.With respect to what had been thrown out relative to the conduct of Lord Teignmouth, he could assure the Committee, that noble lord never did sanction the succession of the prince in question, previous to his be ing placed on the Musnud of Oude. He had opportunities of being well informed upon that subject, and had perused all the letters and documents appertaining to it. After stating the outlines of the transaction, Mr. Burrowes argued successfully upon them, in vindication of the then government of Bengal. He contended that the slight and trivial circumstance of a salute being fired from the ramparts of Fort Wi liam on the occasion of that prince's acces sion, was not sufficient to impeach the honour of the government of Bengal; on the contrary, that government could not consistently with its honour and character have remained unconcerned spectators of a contest for the Musnud of Oude. He must, however, strongly deprecate the practice of thus bringing subjects into debate which had been repeatedly discussed, and decided upon by the House. Such a proceeding was neither just nor honourable. He again adverted to the charges which were made against the two noble lords now at the head of affairs in India; and again, he must express his indignation at hearing those meritorious and nonourable personages branded with the name of robbers. Their conduct, so very far from justifying any epithets of that r3ture, would, he was confident, whenever it should come to be fairly and fully ciscussed, redound highly to their horor. The transactions, when discussed and sifted to the bottom, would add, in the estimation of an impartial posterity, to that stock of fame and honour which they already possessed. He defied any man to point out any political characters, who, since the arduous times of the French revolution, have acquired more solid glory than the two noble lords at the head of the administration of India.-With respect to what had been thrown out relative to the affairs of the Carnatic, he had as little apprehension on that head. That province was protected by the British forces from all its enc mies; the reigning family was maintained upon its Musnud since the year 1744, ard in possession of their territories. What was their return for such friendship ani support? This clearly appeared by some documents found at Seringapatam-it ap

peared they had entered into a traiterous. correspondence with that inveterate enemy of the English, Tippoo, and at a moment when we were at actual war with him. This conduct, independent of what even else may be alleged against it, was entirely incompatible with common good faith. Such a line of conduct would have been sufficient ground for war with Portugal, Holland, or any other power with whom we might be in alliance; upon that ground alone, upon the very justice of the case, our government would have a right to make war upon the Nabob, even were he an independent prince. We were justified, by the circumstances of the case, to depose him by force of arms. It should be recollected, that at the very time Tippoo was ready to fall upon us, upon principles of Eself-defence, the deposition of the Nabob was obviously justifiable: but the measures which the noble lords in question concur red in adopting, were those of uncommon moderation; a moderation, he would contend, unexampled in the history of mankind. They only required of him to do that which was absolutely necessary for our own safety. Their views were bounded by self-preservation only. If ever this important topic should come to be fully discussed, what he advanced would amply appear from the documents found at Seringapatam. That such an inquiry was in contemplation, he was induced to believe, when he recollected that there were orders of the House then pending for documents to throw a light upon the subject; and this consideration called upon him still further to condemn the charges made against those two noble lords, previous to the discussion being entered upon. Here

Mr. Francis rose to order. He said, what had fallen from him on the subject did not deserve the character given of it by the hon. gent. If he thought his language improper and disorderly, he should, according to the regular practice in that House, have had the words taken down, and then moved the censure of the House upon them. He had no right to go on in such a style of invective, but should have adopted the right course of proceeding.

Mr. Burrowes proceeded. He was not conscious, he said, of having used the language of invective; but the hon. gent. should recollect, that he had spoken of the treaties with the Nabobs of Oude and Arcot, as treaties with enslaved princes. He had a right to comment on that language; however, he at the same time meant no. VOL. IV.

thing personal to the hon. gent. His zeal for the honour and characters of the noble

personages in question might have betrayed him into an undue degree of heat and warmth; however, in the case alluded to, the charges made against those noble lords, not only affected their own, but even the national character, which, in the present moment, it was particularly, necessary should be free from reproach. Pursuing the subject farther, he observed that, in his mind, the only question with respect to the two noble lords was, whether they had not stopped short of their duty, considering the treachery to be fully proved, and whether they should not have gone farther? He then proceeded to a consideration of Lord Wellesley's financial administration in India, of which he spoke in terms of unqualified approbation, and particularly instanced the former financial distress of the Company, which com pelled them to borrow money at the exorbitant interest of twelve per cent. This he contrasted with the present prosperous and flourishing state of the Company, for which they were chiefly indebted to the able and diligent administration of the noble marquis, under whose auspices their trade was improved beyond any former precedent, and the revenues advanced to an amount of nearly one million and a half; and these facts, a residence of 12 years in India, afforded him an opportunity of knowing In concluding, he took a short review of the prominent military operations in India, under the direction of the present Governor-General, of which he also spoke in terms of approbation, and particularly applauded that master-stroke of policy, adverted to by the noble lord who spoke last, of dissolving the connexion between the French and the Nizam, by which means, a powerful force of 14,000 men was disbanded, and the officers, mostly French, were made pri

per and Lower Canada.-Lord Glenbervie brought up the report of the Committee appointed to consider the state of the Journals of the House, which was ordered to be taken into consideration on Monday next.

-

A petition was presented from the priessers confined in Cardigan gaol, praying relief. The Two Million Vote of Credit bill, the 1,500 000l. Exchequer Bills' Bill, the Tobacco Export Bill, the Quasia Duty Bill, the Dover and Deal Pilots' Bill, and the bill to exempt persons serving by themselves, or substi utes, in the army of reserve, from serving in the militia, were severally reported, and ordered to be read a third time on Monday.-Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the Committee of Supply, which was agreed to.--Mr. Vansittart brought in a bill for granting certain countervailing duties n fine sugar, imported from Ireland into Great Britain, which was read a first time; as was also the bill for consolidating the duties on stamps. The Auctioneers' Duty ill, and the Irish Tea Exportation Bill, went through a Committee, and were ordered to be reported on Monday. The Tortola Free Port Bill, and the Scotch Malt Bill, were read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday.-The House in a Committee to consider of the bounty payable on sugar, resolved that it was expedient that the period for granting an additional bounty on sugar should be limited. The report to be received on Monday-The Property and Income Bill was ordered to be read a third time on Monday, to which day the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Monday, August 1.

[MINUTES,]-The Bristol Fort Bill was read a third time, and passed.-The following bills were brought up from the Commons; the East India Trade Encouragement Bill,the 1,500,000l. Exchequer Bills' il, Vote of Credit Bill for Two Millions, Customs Regulation Bill, the new Woollen Mlepufacturers' Bill, and several private bills.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Monday, August 1.

[MINUTES.]-A petition was presented from the debtors in Newgate, praying for Ref. Ordered to be laid upon the table. To report of the Committee appointed to Bouider the reprinting of such of the Jour

nals and Reports as were deficient, was agreed to, and the sum of 10,000l. ordered to be paid to the deputy clerk of the House, for the purpose of carrying the resolution into effect. Mr. Corry brought up the report of the Committee on parsonage glebe lands. The resolution for granting 50,000l. to carry the bill into effect, was agreed to, and a bill ordered.—The 2,000,0001, vote of credit bill, and 1,500,000l. Exchequer Bills Bill, were read a third time, and passed.A new writ was ordered for Downton in Wilts, in the room of the Hon. John Wil liam Ward, who had accepred of the Chil tern Hundreds.-The House went into a Committee on the expiring laws, and the report was ordered to be received next day, -The Property Bill was read a third time, several clauses were added, after which the bill passed: When the motion for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Prince of Orange's Indemnity Bill was made, Mr. Calcraft, observed, that it had been stipulated on the part of the French Republic, Holland, and Spain, that a com pensation should be made to the House of Nassau. He had expected that the 18th article of the Treaty of Amiens would have bren acted upon, and that measures would have been taken by government to ea force its fulfilment; but he did not find there had been any correspondence with France upon the subject, to enforce the article of the treaty. He was, however, so grateful for the services rendered by the illustrious House of Orange to this country, that he should not oppose the measure; but he thought his Majesty's ministers, before they called upon this country, ought to shew that they had done all in their power to obtain indeninity from the other powers of the Continent.-The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, that notice of this mea sure had been given at an early period of of the session, and that it had only been deferred by more interesting business. After a few words from Doctor Laurence! the House resolved itself into the Commit tee, and the report was ordered to be rel ceived the next day.-The Stamp Duties Consolidation Bill was committed, and the report ordered to be received the next day. -he Countervailing Duties Bill was read a second time, and committed for the next day. The Tortola Free Port Bill was com mitted, and the report ordered to be received the next day.

chequer moved the order of the day for [SUPPLY.]-The Chancellor of the Ex going into a Committee of Supply, and that the petitions of Mr. Martin and Mr.