I shall vote for the largest amount that has been mentioned here.

Mr. GOWER. I think there is much in the arguments in favor of filling this blank with a high number. Should the State borrow the school fund, both present and prospective, that will, I suppose, at once, create a debt of some three hundred thousand dollars. Other expenses will necessarily arise, which will probably require something beyond what the constitution now allows. We have all along been fully up to the limit prescribed by the constitution, and according to the remarks of some gentlemen here, it seems that we have already exceeded the constitutional limit. Gentlemen have referred here to so many objects, which need the care and encouragement of the State, that it seems to me the sum of five hundred thousand dollars is as small a sum as we should insert in this section. I am as much in favor of keeping out of debt as any one can be, but I do not wish to cramp the State. I have no desire to throw a debt upon posterity, but I think the public good really requires that some material change should be made in this portion of the old constitution.

[February 5th.

There are many matters far more important than
that of building a State House, or any kind of
institution. And I do not desire, when the time
comes and the emergency arrives, to have this
constitution so arranged as to stand in the way
of the progress and prosperity of the people.
Now I am afraid that some members of this
convention are not so willing to trust the people
after all. If the people send foolish men here
to represent them and make laws for them, who
will spend their money for them unnecessarily,
it is their business, not ours. We are not sent
here to guard and watch the people, and place a
check upon them and prevent them from acting
for their own good. And yet it seems to be the
idea of many members of this convention that
unless we so check the government we are not
doing our duty. I shall vote for the largest
amount here, for I believe the time will come in
less than ten years, when circumstances will
arise that will require this State to go into debt
to the amount now named. If those circum-
stances do not arise, then the debt need not be
incurred, and no harm will be done.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I differ in toto from my friend from Johnson, [Mr. Clarke,] when he says we are not sent here to place limitations and

Mr. CLARKE, of Henry. I will state that I find upon examination that the school fund ex-restrictions upon the future action of the legisceeds three hundred thousand dollars.

lature. I think that is our business, and I think Mr. CLARKE, of Johnson. I have but few it is highly important that we should do so, if words to say upon this subject, and I should not we are to believe the half that has been said in say these words did I not conceive that there this hall about the rascality and villainy of the was a very radical difference of opinion in the legislature. I regret that the sum of one hunminds of the members of this convention as to dred thousand dollars was stricken out of this the nature of government, and what it is proper section. I am in favor of that sum, and think it for us to do here. I understand it to be a well is amply sufficient for all our purposes. My reason settled axiom, to which all parties agree, that for thinking so is this: Gentlemen will recollect the people are the source of power; that all po- that this State is growing and progressing raplitical power comes from them. We are sitting idly, and if they will look at the last report of here by virtue of that power, and are to make a the auditor, they will find for the next two fiscal government to be carried on by virtue of that years the estimated amount of receipts over the power. We are to make a representative gov- estimated expenditures is two hundred and fifty ernment in which the public voice is to be ex-thousand dollars, which added to the one hunpressed, and through which the people are to dred thousand dollars which the state would go act. This proposition is what? It is a propo- into debt under this provision as it was reported, sition to tie up, not the hands of this govern- would afford over three hundred thousand dolment, but the hands of the people. We are lars for the expenditure of the State every year called upon to put a check, not upon the gov- for these extraordinary objects. The rate of ernment, but upon the people themselves. If taxation now is forty mills on every one hundred there must be a check, I am willing to give the dollars. That can be changed at any time, and government a very large latitude here. I shall if the State desires to raise a larger amount of vote, perhaps, to make the sum to be inserted money by taxation at any time than it now here five hundred thousand dollars, for the simple reason that five hundred thousand dollars now is not larger, in comparison, than the one hundred thousand dollars which we had ten years ago, when the present constitution was framed and adopted. I hope we shall make a constitution here under which the government shall be established, and under which it will be enabled to work so that in ten years we shall not find ourselves, as we are now, under a government so cramped as to be inadequate to the wants and necessities of the people. I can conceive of many things which will call for the expenditure of money, that are vital to the protection, happiness and prosperity of our people.

We

raises, it can easily do so. There has never
been a time in the history of our State when it
was so important that some restrictions should
be placed upon the subject of state indebtedness,
than the present. The people are all wild, all
crazy upon the subject of making money.
all deem ourselves rich, or soon about to be.
Probably two years hence it will be otherwise.
And I tell you, gentlemen, that this is the sheet
anchor of the security of this State, and we ought
to cling to it.

I believe with the gentleman from Jefferson, [Mr. Wilson,] that the true interpretation of the words "debt or liability," is a bonded debt. It is so considered by all the lawyers with whom

Thursday]

TRAER-GILLASPY-CLARKE-HALL-PATTERSON.

I conversed during the session of the legislature just adjourned, except Mr. Cloud of Muscatine. And if gentlemen will observe the article reported for our consideration by the Committee on State Debts, they will perceive that it is in a much more contracted form than the old constitution. The old constitution says "debt or debts, liability or liabilities," while the provision under consideration says "the credit of the State shall not, in any manner, be given or loaned to, or in aid of," &c. That provision could not be interpreted as the gentleman from Benton, [Mr. Traer,] interprets it. And I say again that there never has been any time when it was more necessary to throw these restrictions about the legislature than it is now.

Mr. TRAER. I will state to the gentleman from Lee, [Mr. Johnston,] that I have not put any construction upon this repart. I have only stated the construction of the gentleman from Jefferson, [Mr. Wilson,] and I asked him if he put the same construction upon this report that he did upon the old constitution. I put no construction upon it at all.

Mr. GILLASPY. I would ask to whom the State would execute her bonds if she borrowed this school money?

Mr. CLARKE, of Henry. Having endorsed the gentleman from Wapello, [Mr. Gillaspy,] as one of the honest members here, I must see that my endorsement is kept good. And lest the convention should suppose that the gentleman was indulging in a quiz, and was not perfectly honest, in my opinion, in the question he put to me, I will give an answer to it. I will say that if the State should borrow the money of the school fund, it would not have to give their bonds to any one. Under the enlarged powers proposed to be given in this constitution, the State would merely borrow the money and be debtor to the school fund for the amount it would receive, which would be about three hundred thousand dollars. And the sums additional to that, that would be coming in annually from the United States and sales of lands, would soon increase the fund to five hundred thousand dollars. And that can be appropriated to such works as they may see fit. Now as the gentleman has expressed such confidence in "the dear people," and in their integrity and good intentions, he certainly can have no objection to their taking charge of this fund and appropriating it for the general good, constituting the state a debtor to the school fund, and paying the interest upon it, instead of having it as it is now.

[February 5th

rects and authorizes. Gentlemen upon the one
side say that it means a bound debt, while gen-
tlemen on the other side contend that the Con-
stitution did not distinguish between the two
kinds of debt, but that if the money is owed it
is a debt. Now I do not believe that the Con-
stitution refers particularly to a bonded debt;
I believe it means any debt that draws inter-
est. This provision was intended to prevent an
addititional burden being put upon the people
in the shape of interest, by way of a bond or
anything else. Now it makes no difference
whether you draw a warrant upon the treasury
to bear interest after a certain date, or whether
you give a bond bearing interest. The two
things are the same in principle. A simple war-
rant not drawing interest would not be a debt
within the meaning of the Constitution; if it
draws interest it would be a constituttional
debt, whether it is a bonded debt or not. Now
our State has been in this condition, and I would
be willing to give it a little morelatitude in
this matter. There is now a permanent debt
against the State of $100,000. And there are
other liabilities which I suppose this provison
of the Constitution may be construed to em-
brace. I do not think there can be any harm or
danger resulting from extending this limit,
and I shall therefore vote to extend the limit to
$200,000, as about what is called for by the ne-
cessities of the State at this time.

Mr. PATTERSON. I voted to strike out the sum $100,000, believing that a majority of the Convention were in favor of extending the limits herein prescribed. But I am opposed to the sum of $500,000, and shall vote for the lowest sum that can be agreed upon here. I am satisfied that if we go up to $500,000, or a million of dollars, I believe that the State would reach the amount at once, as soon as the debts can be contracted.

Mr. GILLASPY. I desire to say to the gentleman from Johnson, [Mr. Clarke,] and the gentleman from Henry, [Mr. Clarke,] that to my mind, they have said more about the dear people" than I have done, or any other gentleman upon this floor, and yet they are throwing out insinuations here, of gentlemen upon this floor being afraid to trust "the dear people." I think this comes with bad grace from gentlemen who talk so much about their willingness to trust the people, and then when they come to vote show that they are not disposed to trust the people. I will just call the attention of gentlemen to the fourth section of this report, where Mr. HALL. So far as I am concerned per- they can perceive that the report has left everysonally, I am not particular whether this sum is thing to the people that is proper and right. put at $100,000, $200,000, or $300,000, pro- We say we are willing to trust the people to vided the section contains the principle I stand contract such debts as are absolutely necessary, upon, to have the interest upon the indebtedness but before such debts shall be contracted they of the State not become oppressive upon the shall be presented to the people in such a manpeople. I believe it would be better to have ner as to let them understand the object of the the amount increased beyond $100,000, if for debts to be so contracted. I am willing the no other purpose than to get rid of these very people should vote $20,000,000 if they think questions upon which gentlemen here and else- proper, for any object of internal imorovement where disagree. It is a fact that this State has in this State, provided they do it understandgone into debt more than the Constitution di-ingly. I have as great confidence in the people

Thursday]

HARRIS.

[February 5th.

as any other member can have. And while I have been made. I do not propose, howsay that I am willing to trust the people, I de-ever, to speak as to what particular matters were sire also to show by my votes that I am willing to trust them. I undertake to say that the fourth section extends over the broadest possible ground, and covers every contingency that may arise in the progress in this State.

not necessary. But I believe that the affairs of the State could have been conducted in such a manner as not to violate the Constitution, as I believe it has been violated, if that amount of indebtedness really exists. I believe that all the And I will say for the benefit of the gentle- means necessary to carry out the proper and leman from Benton, [Mr. Traer,] while I am up, gitimate purposes of the government could be that we have very high authority for the posi- raised without any infraction of the Constitution taken by the gentleman from Jefferson, tion. So far as the necessity of creating any [Mr. Wilson,] and the gentleman from Lee, State debt is concerned at this particular time, [Mr. Johnston,] in regard to the proper con- I am not disposed to go farther than is necessary struction of the provision of the Convention as to carry on the government, and if I may be alit now stands in relation to debts and liabili-lowed the expression, keep the wheels of State ties. I understand that after the delivering of the message of the Governor to the General Assembly, the trustees of the State University memorialized the Legislature to make an appropriation of $100,0000 for their use, and it was not considered, if they had made it that it would have been a violation of the present Constitution of this State. That, I think, should be authority enough for the gentleman from Ben

ton.

well greased.

So far as this idea of creating and erecting these public buildings and other public improve ments are concerned, of which gentlemen have spoken so much here, it is to prevent that I am opposed to allowing the State to incur this amount of indebtedness. I think if there is any subject which should properly go before the people for them to act upon, to consider like the democracy of olden time, to sit upon as a jury, Mr. HARRIS. There seems to be a diversity if you please, it is this very system of entering of views in regard to this matter, and it may upon these public improvements. So far as be well enough for me to state the reasons for erecting the State Capitol and other public buildthe course I propose to pursue when the ques-ings is to be considered, I understand that there tion comes up for action. If I understand the message of his Excellency, Governor Grimes, to the last Legislature, I endorse it to a very great extent. There are some things in it I do not concur in, but I concur in all the monetary portion of it. I understand him to take the ground of no more State indebtedness than we can possibly get along with. That I agree to; I believe it is just as detrimental for a State to go into debt and incur the necessity of paying a large amount of interest, as it is for an individual to do so. And with our revenue system, regulated as it is, which was so fully explained by my friend from Lee, [Mr Johnston,] I cannot conceive of any necessity for the State going into debt more than the present Constitutional limit, the sum of $100,000. And when the proper time shall come I will vote to retain that sum of $100,000, which was stricken out of this section. I should not feel willing to go home to my constituents without at least being placed upon the record as in favor of retaining that sum. However, I did not get up simply to tell how I shall vote, for that could be understood by all when I come to vote.

are ample provisions already made to enable. the State to get along for fifty years to come, and to have as good accommodations as we have here, without incurring any indebtedness whatever. And it is only when the wealth of the State and the amount of the tax paying property of the State have become such that the amount of revenue can be increased without saddling indebtedness upon the State, that it should be considered proper to embark upon this system of internal improvements. I do not think that there is any necessity, at present, of creating a State debt of more than $100,000. I certainly consider the remark of the gentleman from Lee, [Mr. Johnston,] that the people of this State have become wild upon the subject of speculation and getting rich, a remark that every gentleman here can fully endorse.

As for this idea of the State assuming this school fund, and giving bonds, upon which interest is to be paid, I am opposed to it entirely. And I believe the idea is only mooted as something which may be done for the purpose of creating a basis for a banking system. If we cannot have banks without making the indebtedwithness of the State the basis of that banking system, then I am opposed to having any banks. I know that so far as the people I represent here are concerned, if there is any one provision of the Constitution with which they are entirely satisfied, and which they would, under no circumstances, have changed, it is the one in reference to State indebtedness. I know they would frown upon any attempt to change that provision, more than they would upon any other change that could be made in the Constitution. And I believe gentlemen will find it so all over the State whenever the sovereign people come to

But there is another idea in connection this matter to which I desire to call the attention of the committee. In referring to the indebtness of the State at this time, it is stated to be some $128,000. And gentlemen seem to suppose that because that is really a fact, it must have been legitimately incurred, and that perhaps there has been no needless expenditure of the money of the State in creating that amount of indebtedness. Now, I have only to say that my impression is, that it has not been properly created, and that there have been, perhaps, some expenditures which should not

Thursday]

TRAER--HALL-WINCHESTER-PALMER-GIBSON-HRRIS.

[February 5th.

express their opinion in regard to the mat-proportion than the actual necessities of the State.

ter.

I think it would be well, however, to author

Mr. PALMER. I would ask the gentleman from Benton [Mr. Traer] how he makes out that the Democrats have violated the constitution in relation to State indebtedness ?

Mr. TRAER. I have no desire to make any speech upon this subject. But I wish to say aise the contracting of debts to the extent I have few words in reply to the gentleman from Wa- named for the purpose of building the necessary pello [Mr. Gillaspy]. In speaking of his au- charitable institutions in this State. That was thority for his side of the question, he referred my object in proposing the amount I have proto the opinions expressed by the gentleman from posed here. Jefferson, (Mr. Wilson), and the gentleman from Lee (Mr. Johnston). Now I have no disposition to cavil at their decision in regard to this matter. I have the utmost confidence in their judgment; still I must say I am not inclined to give up the position I took before, that the constitution of the State has been violated. And I will read a statement from the message of the Governor in answer to the position taken by gentlemen that nothing but bonds create a State debt within the meaning of this constitution. And I will show that the state is already in debt over and above the amount which the constitution specifies shall be the limit. In summing up and giving a detailed account of the indebted ness of the State, the Governor says: "There were outstanding, unpaid auditors' warrants due on the first Nov., 1857, amounting to $11,567 64

There are bonds of the State due
first of January, 1857, .
Due to the School Fund, Sept.
15, 1859,

Due to the School Fund July 15, 1866,

71,442 00

5,000 00

40,000 00

Total indebtedness, $128,009 64 Now there is an amount of $71,000 that this State owes on her bonds. A great portion of that debt I suppose was contracted before the present constitution was formed, or soon afterwards. Mr. HALL. That has been paid already. Mr. TRAER. That may be, but how has it been paid? By contracting another debt-and the violation of the constitution remains the

same.

I am much obliged to my Democratic friends here for coming forward and supporting the action of the legislature and the executive, and I hope they will not go out of this convention and endeavor to make capital against the party to which I belong, by citing the action of the present executive of the State, as they tried to do before I came here.

Mr. TRAER. The gentleman misunderstands me. I said that I was glad that the Democrats have endorsed the action of the Republican party. And the gentleman from Wapello [Mr. GillasPy], the gentleman from Lee [Mr. Johnston], and the gentleman from Appanoose [Mr. Harris] have cited their action as good authority for their proposed action here. I am glad they have committed themselves, so that they cannot go out from this convention and charge this upon the Republican party as a Republican measure.

Mr. GIBSON. I charge it upon the Republican party, and do not justify the course they have pursued. I would leave it with the Republican party to give their own explanation.

Mr. HARRIS. I did not before understand that the gentleman from Benton [Mr. Traer] was. the keeper of the reputation of the governor. Now, if I know anything about the history of parties in regard to this matter, we are not to be suspected of getting upon the Republican platform. And I suspect if his Excellency was called upon to express his private and individual views in regard to this matter, it would be found that they have undergone some change. And so far from our getting upon the Republican platform, if the Republican party has ever had any platform, in reference to State indebtedness, his Excellency has got upon the Democratic platform. And not only upon that question, but upon other questions. And hence we are not estopped from speaking with respect to his Excellency, or the Republican party, so far as the position of the Democratic party in regard to State indebtedness is concerned.

Now, I understand that so far as this portion of the constitution is concerned, which has been aptly termed by the gentleman from Lee [Mr. Johnston] the sheet anchor of the State, it has been and is yet a Democratic measure. I only regret that some of those whom we had a right Mr. WINCHESTER. I desire to say in sup-to look to for support, and who ought to have port of my motion to fill this blank with the words "two hundred and fifty thousand," that I have heard the people in my district say more about this question of State indebtedness than any other question, except that in regard tobanking. It was the prevailing opinion among them that the sum to which the State has heretofore been limited, might, perhaps, bear increasing to two hundred thousand or two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Consequently, I shall vote for the amount I have named, and no greater amount. I believe that the revenue of this State will increase from this time forward faster in

been the pillars of the democracy in this matter, are disposed to become a little loose in their notions about it. I understand that the sentiment of the Democratic party of this State is against State indebtedness, and if there is any other party that has a sentiment against State indebtedness, they are but endorsing the old Democratic doctrine. I do not understand, therefore, what right the gentleman from Benton has to catechize us, as to how we shall speak about the Republican party, or his Excellency, or any body else, in regard to this matter of State indebtedness. It gives me pleasure to

BUNKER-HARRIS-SCOTT--SOLOMON.